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Old 08-28-2008, 12:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
gpsman1
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Default Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

I have contacted a battery producer who is willing and able to make batteries for the Insight at a reasonable price, and in a reasonably short period of time. What is not sure at this time, is if MIMA is sufficient for integration ( the first prototype will use MIMA, the production model, maybe something else ) or if additional hardware will be required.

Edit:
I guess this would be a good place to ask: What would be the ideal battery pack if you could have it any way you'd like?


My personal vehicle will be the first prototype.

The PHEV Prius and PHEV Escape both get 3 times to 4 times the stock MPG on both city and highway driving conditions.
Even though the gas engine is running on the highway ( like the Insight ) the cars rarely burn more than an idle amount of gas.

The reason you want a larger battery for your Insight is: You will get over 150 to 225 MPG all the time!*
*First 50 or so miles per day.

Preliminary cost estimates for:

Lithium Ion Battery Pack + Professional BMS + Professional Plug-in charger ( 120v / 220v / 240v options )

4kWh Lithium Plug-in pack $6000 to $6499
8kWh Lithium Plug-in pack $9500 to $9999

This could be ready to ship to you, as a "drop in" REPLACEMENT for your existing pack in 4 to 6 months from now.

The battery manufacturer would like a commitment for 25 packs ( total, both sizes combined is OK ) but will do fewer if there is significant interest. It will cost a little more.
This would require a $1000 down payment at some date TBD to reserve yours and get your place on the list. Refundable if you change your mind, or the minimum number of orders is not reached.

So how many people are interested in this?
I'm going to donate my car as the prototype as soon as Mike ships MIMA.
The prototype should only take a few weeks, unless large unexpected problems arise.
Production of the packs will then go quickly, as this company has industrial, assembly facilities.
Your battery pack will have professonal plastic or metal case TBD and professional cables and connectors and Battery Management System, proven on the road.

What's in it for me? Nothing more than you. BULK BUYING POWER.
This company will build me one pack for ~$35,000 since they need to recoup their R&D time.
They can reproduce the battery SYSTEMS for under $6000 each 4kWh, or $9000 each 8Kwh.
This is for the complete SYSTEM or SYSTEM + cost of Mike's MIMA.
I think MIMA will be needed to get the most utility from your Plug-in Insight.

Please add your name to this list if you are interested in plug-in capability for your Insight.

You will not need to send any money until we see if there is at least CLOSE to 25 interested persons.
EDIT: I need at least 10 interested parties.

Thanks!
-John

The more we order, the lower the cost:
************************************************** ************************************************** ************
LIST OF INTERESTED PARTIES:
  • #01 John E ---> battery + $25,000 development
    #02
    #03
    #04
    #05 battery + $5,000 development ( 25k / 5 )
    #06
    #07
    #08
    #09
    #10 battery + $2500 development ( 25k / 10 )
    ...
    #25 battery + $1000 development ( 25k / 25 )
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

Oh err competition

Can we have some details of this company, web site etc, do they have any detailed tech specs of the proposed conversion?

Which battery make's/capacities will they be using?

I'm sure a lot will be interested. Please keep us updated on your own vehicle's progress.

Thanks. Peter

I won't be on the list at this stage having just bought my own lithium pack. Thanks.
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

I know there are some very capable people who can do it themselves.
However, not many can afford to do it themselves.

The BMS has already been made professionally. Keeping the large battery safe, and in an appropriate operating discharge range, and recharge rate has already been built. The encouragement and experiments from experts on this site have given me hope that the Insight, with MIMA, will allow 8 kWh of discharge before a recharge ( other than regen ) is needed.

I do not worry about the Stock SOC display. The plug-in battery will come with a stand-alone SOC display.
As long as the car does not malfunction, this is very workable.
Thanks for your interest.
The BMS is robust, abd reliable.
It has been used for tens of thousands of miles of real world driving.
More detail will be available soon.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

Could you perhaps explain why we'd want to make this conversion? The Insight can't run on electricty alone so at most the plug-in feature will save the gas burned recharging the stock IMA battery. We've been getting about 100,000 mi on the factory batteries so at $2000 each set it will take another 300,000 mi to equal the cost of the Lithium battery. I don't expect the chassis on either of our Insights will go another 300,000 mi. (we're at 130,000 and 190,000 now) Typical for Hondas, lots of little things are already breaking off, failing or tearing.

Just me, but I would only buy a conversion that kept the stock instrumentation working.

$6000-9000 would sound pretty good for an EV conversion, but what does the better battery do for us?

-John
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHeller
$6000-9000 would sound pretty good for an EV conversion, but what does the better battery do for us?
IMO without MIMA, not much.



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Old 08-28-2008, 07:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

This is not something I would be interested in. I am happy the way my Insight as is.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHeller
Could you perhaps explain why we'd want to make this conversion?
It allows you to offset gasoline usage with electricity usage... less of the electrical power the IMA system uses comes from gasoline... if combined with MIMA you can get assist on demand and use even more electricity and offset even more gasoline.... use the extra IMA to get that bit of boost to stay in lean burn or a higher gear instead of down shifting or using more gas.... so in a nut shell.. you do it to reduce your gasoline usage...

Weather it is cost effective requires much more information about the particular PHEV Insight conversion system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHeller
The Insight can't run on electricty alone
Technically not true... although most people would never use the limited , not very efficient EV mode the Insight has...
There are two methods....

#1> you run out of gas... but are already in IMA assist mode... if you floor it I have found that I can force the IMA to keep pushing the car even without gas... you waste a good bit of power as you are spending some of it just to pump air through the ICE.... but you are running on electricity alone...

#2> If your Insight has been modified with a system like MIMA you can force the IMA to provide as much as 100% full 10kW assist any time you like... if you get the engine RPMs above ~2,000 with your foot off the gas pedal the car will enter fuel cut mode just like as if you were doing engine braking going down a hill... you are now in fuel cut mode using no gas and on all electric drive... again you are wasting some of your 10kW ( ~12HP ) IMA energy just pumping air ... but you can run like that for as long as you have battery power.... even with a full tank of gas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHeller
Just me, but I would only buy a conversion that kept the stock instrumentation working.
$6000-9000 would sound pretty good for an EV conversion, but what does the better battery do for us?
-John
I will definitely agree with you here... I would rather add to the NiMH system already in the car.... but there are benefits to other methods.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

Sorry but I would pass on this as well. The current cost vs benefit vs remaining lifespan of the car (even with the genius of Mima for the 120 plus of us that will have "the Mima grin" soon) just does not add up to the cash outlay.

The beauty of Mima is that it is an affordable upgrade that truly makes the Insight a much better car all around.

Wayne
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Old 08-30-2008, 09:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
Mike Dabrowski 2000
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

The BMS specifications rather than just calling it professional is what I want to see. Will it turn off the pack when one of the cells gets depleted while the pack is in use?
In any multy cell pack, that one feature is what will keep the cells from becoming overly discharged.
Peter's BMS with a monitor for each cell is the only way to manage a mobile lithium pack, and is similar to what Tesla roadster, T-zero, and the other lithium based EV systems use.
The other issue is to fool the Insight BMS system into using the higher capacity. Uhtrinitys dual pack has shown that one can squeeze more AH into the system and take advantage of it, but it is not clear that one can add additional KW of capacity as easily without the car setting IMA codes.
Are they planing to do the integration into the cars systems as part of the price?
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Old 08-30-2008, 10:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plug-in Lithium Battery Insights for SALE!

The BMS would have microcontrollers on each subset of cells.

Lets say to get the Ah you want, you put 10 individual cells in parallel to make a "block".
Then you put 45 "blocks" in series to get the voltage you want.

In this case, you would have 45 microcontrollers monitoring the voltage, current, temperature, of each "block".
The BMS always keeps all 45 blocks balanced with each other.
Each has a unique address, and you can monitor all 45 blocks individually with a scan tool.

These microcontrollers will shunt power around the highest voltage cells when charging.
When discharging, the BMS will alert you when the lowest "block" reaches a setpoint.
The cars can change from a battery deplete mode to a battery sustain mode.
Basically, when the Plug-in pack reaches a minimum setpoint, the car behaves like the stock car.

The PHEV Prius and PHEV Escape both get 3 times to 4 times the stock MPG on both city and highway driving conditions.
Even though the gas engine is running on the highway ( like the Insight ) the cars rarely burn more than an idle amount of gas.

The reason you want a larger battery for your Insight is: You will get over 150 to 225 MPG all the time!*
*First 50 or so miles per day.

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