FS: Grid Charger Complete Kits

[Artric]

Originally Posted by Rush

Hi Artic,

Since you are using the schematics, background information, accumulated Insight knowledge, and general expertise of Mike, I was wondering if you plan to acknowledge that by paying him some sort of royality? Don't you think that he deserves some sort of compensation, since you're making about $120 in profit. I mean I've made a charger from his schematics, but I certainly don't plan to make a bunch of them.

I just sort of think that if you're going to make a profit on somebody elses sweat and expertize, you could soften the impact on his business by acknowledging his contribution to your 'product'.

I just hope that Mike doesn't say to himself, well if I give out all this free information and somebody starts making the stuff and selling it, then maybe I won't give out any information, or limit it. Have you given any thought as to how his reaction might effect the 'quality' and 'quanity' of info that he publishes on this forum? After all this is sort of and 'open source' forum and you're using the info for personal profit...

What do you think?

Rush, you're totally correct. I made it a point today that I need to connect with Mike to discuss this and get his feelings on the topic (which I have not yet done). I am using his simple schematic, but the actual work going into building these units is my sweat. If Mike feels that he is due royalties for his work, then I'm willing to open discussions with him.

I started this on a bit of a whim, and it took off more quickly than expected. It started a while back with two people asking me to build chargers for them because they liked my design. I didn't jump on it right away because of the potential risk involved. But then I saw my job slipping out from underneath me, and thought I'd give it a go. They paid for parts and shipping only, and I will only be receiving the balance (profit) when they are installed and completely satisfied (which should be happening this weekend, I believe).

I didn't originally start this as a business venture, but when I did lose my job, I saw an opportunity to help the community, do something that I'm really excited about, and supplement the $275 per week that I'll be receiving for unemployment (which just about covers my bills, not food, etc). At this stage, believe me, the money that I make building each charger would have been much easier made sitting behind a desk working in my field of expertise, had I not been let go in such a tasteless fashion.

So I saw a gap and a need within the community, with Peter no longer making his chargers, and Mike's chargers not yet released, with no announced due date that I'm aware of. I also had a need myself, to support my family in this interim chapter of my life, and thought it made sense to put my two hands to use.

People have asked me when I'm going to implement Mike's upgraded two-stage design, and I've told them that I'm pretty happy with what I have now, as I really don't want to directly compete with Mike. I'm also not at his level. He's selling a Lexus, and I'm selling a Toyota. It'll get you where you want to go, but it's not as polished or able as his unit. And as I noticed above, he pointed out the fact that I'm not an electrician. I'm not, and don't claim to be, but some jobs don't require an electrician, IMHO. I'm an enthusiast who learned from a leader in the community (Mike, as well as others), and has found a way to build a solid, proven product at a very reasonable price in a short timeframe, using recycled materials that I found to form the perfect case. This is the cheapest charger that has been offered on these forums, with features not available on prior units. I could have picked up where Peter left off and started at $300 US. I'm using more (and more expensive components) showing that I'm not just out to make a quick buck of Mike's ideas and the community.

I had a pest control guy come to my house, spend about 20 minutes spraying a few things and sprinkling some stuff in my lawn, and he made $75. I thought to myself... damn, if he makes that in such a short time, why can't I get paid somewhere close to what my time is worth?

If using Mike's design is wrong, then I've made a bad judgement. I had assumed that he, being a skilled engineer, would be happy to see that design put into use, and wouldn't be worried about a few bucks here and there. He's got so many projects going on at any one time, that it would make anyone's head spin. He's done a number of great things for the community, such as build MIMA, which I have purchased from him when I had disposable income. But at the same time, those instructions are out there for people to build their own units. If I am infringing on any open source licensing, please let me know - honestly. I didn't see that as the case going into this. I'm not a lawyer, just a guy who's assembling some grid chargers.

And for the record, I've acknowledged Mike Dabrowski every step of the way. I refer people to his Web site. I tell them that I am using his design, I tell them that the charger he is building will be superior to mine, and that he is willing to rent his original charger instead of pushing to sell one of mine to someone that's not sure if they need it. I even acknowledged his help and my respect for him in the video and on the video description page, along with his URL.

I agree that I should have connected with Mike earlier. I've been busy with a number of personal things, and honestly really busy responding to PMs and emails. As you can see here, I have problems being brief and spend much more time than necessary sharing what I have learned on this forum with other users... but that's what it's all about, right? Sharing knowledge for the better of the community.

I come from more traditional communities where one person offering another a service (like changing springs/struts) for a nominal price that's below what one would expect in the shop is considered a win-win. I looked at what I am doing as being along the same lines of that installation (in this case assembly into the case, wiring up the power supplies, and supplying all necessary instruction and components needed for an easy install). Obviously it's not the same thing, but that's how I looked at it.

If anyone believes what I am doing is wrong, please drop me a line. Also, I urge you to not buy anything from me until this is resolved, as I don't want anyone to be less than 100% satisfied with what I'm offering, even if it has nothing to do with the physical product itself.

Mike, if me not consulting you before selling the units was in bad taste, please consider this my official and sincere apology. Iif you have any feedback, aside from your lack of faith in my ability, please let me know. If you would like to discuss your cut, again, drop me a line. I have nothing but respect for you and what you have contributed to the community, so thank you for everything.

So that's my story, honest.

[Artric]

Originally Posted by Rush

I was just reading the new posts (I've been off line for a while due to personal committments), and see in the original grid charger/balancer thread that Mike has posted
"I see that I will have some competition from Artric with his grid charger. For people that want a simple solution, and cannot wait any longer, that may be the way to go. I can't see going through all this work and then selling just the controller to him, so that will not happen. I may be generous with information and my telephone and e-mail support of the insight comunity, but I am not stupid enough to help my competition, Sorry Art."

Artic, I sure hope that 'you haven't screwed the pooch' so to speak.

I hadn't read that, so thanks for sharing. So I now see he won't want to sell me the controller. Good - as I said above, I don't want to be in direct competition with him. Not everyone is willing to spend $500 for a grid charger, and the people that are willing to do so are going to buy one from him.

The people that aren't willing to shell out that kind of money would otherwise sit back and think about how they're going to build one themselves, and likely never do it. I was in that boat for a while. And if someone had offered to sell me a complete kit at that time for this price, I would have been all over it. I contemplated Peter's kit for awhile, but decided to suck it up and learn what I could. The $120 (including shipping and sourcing of a power supply case) that is paid above the investment required to buy the components is a service. It's the service of me completing the project that they were never going to get around to.

I feel a little less bad about not contacting him seeing that he has called me out in such a negative way repeatedly across the forum. Where is this bitterness coming from? There was no bad blood between him and Peter. I'm helping people by answering tons of questions in the same way that he is. We're not so different. He simply came up with an idea and published it out there for the world to use. I didn't see any patents on the design, and I thought it was great, so I used it.

He's not currently offering this product - in fact, no one is. I'm not his competition, because he's not selling a product, yet. And his product is a completely different animal from what I'm selling.

Mike, I'm sorry if I have rubbed you the wrong way. If you find my venture threatening to your business, let me know, and I'll cut it out as soon as I find gainful employment. I'll probably be employed and stop selling the units before you start selling yours, so I hope it won't be a big issue.

Good luck and all the best!

[Artric]

Originally Posted by Mike Dabrowski 2000

My 2C on the subject:

Would you hire an electrician to wire your house that did not understand basic electronics?

Ray, Guess you did not learn from your engineer system issues?

Just wanted to say wow, low blow there.

I am confident that my understanding of electronics has proven sufficient to produce these units. And on that note, thank you for the pieces of knowledge that came from you.

I got a book from the library to try and fill in some gaps in my knowledge. Luckily, none of those gaps apply to this simple design.

If anyone doubts my ability, then by no means should you buy from me. Wait and see what I produce and see if it lives up to the hype, or if it doesn't. Then make your decision after weighing all of your available options.

If anyone has questions or concerns, please feel free to raise them in this thread, via PM, or drop me an email.

Cheers!

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Art,
Good luck

[joecvt]

When someone post a design or schematic in this forum, it is usually intended for other Insight owners to understand what the other member is doing or to make a mod to your own Insight so that you can also benefit from the modification. The difference is when a member takes that design that someone else has put a lot of time and effort into, builds it / sells it to others for profit.

A few months ago, I was called paranoid by a forum member when I did not want to post a schematic in the forum of some circuits that I worked on due to the fear that someone will take the design and sell it for profit. At that point in time, it had already been done in the past by a certain forum member.

I have posted some schematics via PM since then instead of posting in the open public forum.

I have been asked in the past to build someone their own MIMA_L on a couple of occasions and they would pay me for my work but I have declined those requests because it wasn't my design.

The idea of: since it was in plublic domain without a patent, it is okay for me to use it for profit.....may be somewhat legally correct compared to what may be morally correct.

My 2 cents anyway....I'm just putting out a possible explanation as to why some may get upset over this.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner

[rayholan]

Originally Posted by joecvt

When someone post a design or schematic in this forum, it is usually intended for other Insight owners to understand what the other member is doing or to make a mod to your own Insight so that you can also benefit from the modification. The difference is when a member takes that design that someone else has put a lot of time and effort into, builds it / sells it to others for profit.

A few months ago, I was called paranoid by a forum member when I did not want to post a schematic in the forum of some circuits that I worked on due to the fear that someone will take the design and sell it for profit. At that point in time, it had already been done in the past by a certain forum member.

I have posted some schematics via PM since then instead of posting in the open public forum.

I have been asked in the past to build someone their own MIMA_L on a couple of occasions and they would pay me for my work but I have declined those requests because it wasn't my design.

The idea of: since it was in plublic domain without a patent, it is okay for me to use it for profit.....may be somewhat legally correct compared to what may be morally correct.

My 2 cents anyway....I'm just putting out a possible explanation as to why some may get upset over this.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner

Appreciate your remarks, Joe. It does put things in context. From recent posts, it seems that Mike and Art have come to an understanding of sorts. I for one hope to see continued open discussion and sharing on the forum. Adding my 2 cents to the kitty.....

[retepsnikrep]

Further discussion on the rights and wrongs of this case is highly likely to inflame the situation and I have deleted the last two posts. I have advised Art about his post and thank Rush for some wise advice.

The chargers are/will be available from Mike or Art. Buyer makes choice so be it. Lets all get on with life!

[Artric]

Peter, thank you. My apologies to the community for letting things get out of hand.

On that note, I have a relevant question. One thing that was brought up was that if trying to charge an I2 or HCH, a special item was needed to power the fan, and that if the fan wasn't powered up, it would "cook" the battery.

Prior chargers, such as the one that Peter built and sold to many happy customers on this forum, did not implement a circuit for 12v to run the fan (unless I am mistaken). This was for the 1st Gen Insight, and it has been discussed a number of times, with the conclusion that it is not necessary to run the fan at 350ma charge rate, but it definitely couldn't hurt things.

Is there any reason why the I2 or HCH would be any different at such a low charge rate?

[rayholan]

Originally Posted by retepsnikrep

The chargers are/will be available from Mike or Art. Buyer makes choice so be it. Lets all get on with life!

Many Thanks, Peter. I concur wholeheartedly. Back to Insight fun.

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Me too

Deleted my post
Lets get on with things.
Sorry I got nasty Art, good luck selling your chargers.
Sorry but you will have to depend on someone else to answer your questions.