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Old 01-17-2017, 03:19 PM   #21 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=S Keith;1146498]He misinterpreted P1449 as temp related. You probably missed it in many of the posts.

Thanks. I saw that temp wasn't the issue. I just thought I'd let him know that the probe he remembers was not to turn on the fan.

And I mentioned the 150W because maybe others did not realize that he was using that much current. Though I don't really know that he was using that, plus I think Mike's unit would stop the discharge before it got that low unless other settings were specifically bypassed.
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennysmith View Post

I don't think MIMA has temp probes.
MIMA does have two temp probes, and a connection to the fan circuit. MIMA wouldn't be active while charging. The OP determined that his fan WAS operating properly.

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Old 02-17-2017, 10:53 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Hey guys sorry it took so long to finally respond of the tap test results, results are as follows:
A+B-: 16.02
C+D-: 15.93
E+F-: 15.93
G+H-: 15.90
I+J-: 15.73
K+L-: 16.05
M+N-: 15.78
O+P-: 15.83
Q+R-: 15.69
S+T-: 15.78

So it's looking like the average voltage amongst the cells around 15.8, and it seems like the only real outliers are the ones that exceed 16 V, so does this mean to sticks need to be replaced? How do I determine which sticks I tested and replace? I've got a spare I am a battery I got from the guy parting out his insight, unfortunately part of the wiring harness for his battery was eaten by rodents, the PO tried to use duct tape to put them back together, not going to trust the wiring, but the cells inside may still be OK. My plan was to take a couple sticks out of there and put it in my pack hoping it'll revive it for the time being, not sure how to test how those sticks are good or not though, trial and error? Lol

ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:24 AM   #24 (permalink)
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the tap voltages don't really look like a problem, so i doubt the problem is the IMA battery itself in this case, or at least the root of your current problem.

have you started by checking the basics like all the fuses?
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cameron6741 View Post
....tap test results are as follows:
A+B-: 16.02
C+D-: 15.93
E+F-: 15.93
G+H-: 15.90
I+J-: 15.73
K+L-: 16.05
M+N-: 15.78
O+P-: 15.83
Q+R-: 15.69
S+T-: 15.78
hmm, they look pretty bad but unfortunately not the 'glaringly bad' we would hope for. I don't have a lot of experience with tap voltages. S Keith seems to, though, so hopefully he chimes in with his interpretation. You can read-up a few posts and see what he said about it earlier - for example, your max spread is greater than 0.2V, S Keith's sort of borderline threshold... Meantime I can offer some thoughts...

First, you could probably get more telling info if you checked taps with a discharge load on the pack. Since you've used a discharger before, I gather that's doable. Maybe pop in a 100w+ light bulb, check taps, see if one or more of the tap voltages sags a lot more than the others? S Keith mentioned above that 'bad taps pop out like a sore thumb with a 1A load'. In my experience, 1A would seem too small, but I don't really know...

Second, if taking apart the pack is looking like a 99% certainty regardless, then it might be worth buying a hobby charger, like the Reaktor 300W jobber (~$65 at Hobbking), and subjecting each stick to at least the 'push button IR measurement'. Compare values and take it from there... I don't think it's totally necessary to charge, discharge or anything - just hook each stick up, press a button, write down the values, and see if any values pop out...

Third, I'm under the impression that functioning sticks with 'some' charge should usually be between about 1.32 to 1.37V per cell, or 15.84V to 16.44V for a tap. You've got 4 or 5 taps that fall just below or quite below this range. The problem is it's hard to know how the sticks were left/charged prior to measurement, hard to tell what's causing a low value, etc. For instance, if all sticks were equally charged at time A, a low tap voltage at time B would suggest relatively high self discharge - maybe for 1 cell in the tap, maybe for a few, who knows... On the other hand, one or more cells may never have been charged to the degree others were charged, because those one or more cells are bunk...

I think I might grid charge to what appears to be full, log tap voltages maybe 5 minutes after the grid charge, and then check tap voltages again in a few days. Do any taps pop out? This seems easy, doable, and might reveal more about the problem...

If one or more cells are truly 'bunk', then I'd expect one or more taps to be quite lower than the others at the 5 minutes after grid charge measurement; I'm not really sure of the absolute values though, I think 'normal' might be something like 16.8-17V... If one or more cells has high self discharge, then the tap to which it belongs will be lower than the others at the 3 day or so measurement point... I'd treat as suspect any tap that falls below 15.84V for sure; I'd be suspicious of any tap that falls below 16.08V...
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Given the described process of near MONTHLY, AGGRESSIVE and DEEP discharges, immediate code and obvious tap issues, I suspect that a discharge will pull out the issues even at 1A. You may need to discharge it a bit, but I betcha something will scream at you before you hit 144V. There are likely multiple weak cells with high IR and/or low capacity. As soon as the car spins the ICE and spikes the current from the battery, the cells shit the bed, and the tap disparity is huge - code.

Hobbyking no longer carries the single Reaktors. Duals and quads are available. For ease of use, I recommend the Reaktor 1000W with its 80W internal discharge capability. It surpasses what the SB 989 could do, and it captures log data. It also has 30A charge and regenerative discharge capability. It's a beast. Clone of the iCharger 3010.

For anyone reading this thread, discharging should ONLY be done when charging alone does not produce results comparable to past performance.

The only significant thing discharging does for you is reclaim capacity lost from voltage depression ("memory"). The likelihood of significant voltage depression occurring in a 3-6 month time frame is very low unless in an extreme environment (Phoenix). Even then, you don't get much.

Compared to 350mA charging, discharging is abusive. With 120 cells in the pack, it's VERY easy to drive a single cell in reverse to the point of permanent damage.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:05 PM   #27 (permalink)
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^You know, he did do this for 2 years... You have a lot of 'arm-waving' going on, but given that he's done this process for a long time, you can hardly say the super-deep discharging is what did the pack in. It's not like one day he tried a deep discharge and - poof - the pack threw a code for the first time (as you implied more directly some posts up, a while ago): he did it for 2 years and then - poof? - he got a code for the first time...

I deep discharged my rebuilt pack when I put it in about a year and a half ago, and in the intervening time grid charged maybe 5 times, roughly equally spaced time intervals. I let about 3 months pass after the last grid charge and decided to do a deep discharge. That deep discharge recovered capacity and performance that I hadn't realized I had lost - and for which the grid charging apparently had been doing nothing...

Did it 'fix' voltage depression that had set in over that year and a half? Could be. But the point is, something happens to the cells that grid charging doesn't help, and which deep discharging does. All those 5 grid charges I'm thinking, 'I'm balancing my cells, all is well', but in the end, I don't think that's happening. That "something" - I guess we can call it voltage depression - evolves and the grid charge can't fix that. You still end up with unbalanced cells - and driving on unbalanced cells probably makes matters worse, or at least, you suffer the immediate affect of not having an optimized pack...

I'm doubtful whether people can really tell, (A) at what level their packs are performing and (B) to which level it needs to be returned from just grid charging... So for that reason, as well as based on my recent experience above, I'm reluctant to accept the 'only grid charge' mantra... On the other hand, I'd expect any pack that needs monthly 'treatment' of whatever sort to be needing some other fix anyway, if not total replacement...

OP's case is more of a vindication of super-deep discharging than it is a case against it: 2 years down to near zero volts - 3 times each session - and he finally gets a code. Doesn't seem like much of a case, or at least, it seems like an oversight to use it as one...
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:29 AM   #28 (permalink)
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First it was about a year, then it was two years. Data is questionable. The simple truth is we have no idea of one vs. the other in this case because of the process used. The taps suggest some pretty serious issues.

Peter has revised how he does his discharges for a reason. Mike developed the process of progressive deep discharges to minimize their negative effects.

There are multiple instances of people nursing packs along with grid charging and then do a straight deep discharge to zero rendering their packs dead.

The simple fact is that there's nothing mysterious or misunderstood about deep discharge. It's a shortcut - plain and simple. It's aggressive and maximizes the potential for damage. You're trading time for risk.
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:55 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cameron6741 View Post
ive got a spare battery pack that i got from a guy that gutted his insight (also got all the ima computers, engine etc) so if its just two sticks, maybe ill try to take two sticks from the spare pack and do that for a temporary fix.

So for future knowledge... How low should i take a grid charge regurally? 5v? If i get a new pack i want to do regular, HEALTHY, grid charging so that pack goes forever so just kind of looking for the healthiest chArging, discharging patten?
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Originally Posted by cameron6741 View Post
I've got a spare I am a battery I got from the guy parting out his insight, unfortunately part of the wiring harness for his battery was eaten by rodents, the PO tried to use duct tape to put them back together, not going to trust the wiring, but the cells inside may still be OK. My plan was to take a couple sticks out of there and put it in my pack hoping it'll revive it for the time being, not sure how to test how those sticks are good or not though, trial and error? Lol
I think the discussion has gotten caught in the weeds a bit here, and missing the obvious. Since you have a totally different spare pack that presumably hasn't been through any sort of grid charging regiment before, it is highly likely this pack can be revived and nursed along the way you have your current pack for many years to go. What I would do is fix that wiring harness the easiest way possible by using the good harness from your bad pack. Not sure which harness got chewed through, but maybe it just takes 2-3 screws to swap them. If it's the tap voltages harness it may take a bit more work to swap. After that, put the complete donated pack in your car, grid charge it with full balancing cycle (12-24 hours), and see how it goes. There's a very good chance you can use this pack with no additional maintenance for many months or even a year or two.

But even before you swap the packs, you can do some homework with the spare pack to try and figure out its state of health preemptively.

1. Measure current pack voltage
2. Measure tap voltages
3. Let it self discharge over a few days and measure pack/tap voltages once a day or every 2 days.
4. Grid charge the pack, then repeat the pack/tap voltage measurements a couple more days to make sure the pack charges up properly and isn't suffering severe self discharge.

Once you've done that and the results are good, you can have some confidence swapping the packs won't be wasted energy. Hopefully the tap voltage harness isn't the chewed through one, as that would complicate work on the spare pack.

In the mean time, you can continue mucking with your current pack to try and chase down the root cause of the quick CEL/IMA triggers. Measuring tap voltages with some kind of load is easy enough to do, and may help you quickly narrow down any obviously bad apples.

As to your question of how to maximize the longevity of a pack, I think most would agree to error on the side of being conservative. However there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the best approach to treat packs once they've reached a certain level of deterioration. The most conservative approach is to follow the recommendations outlined on Hybrid Automotive's site, which indicate you should do a 3-level charge/discharge cycle. They have built a business based on their recommendations, so you would think their advice ought to be pretty good, and I believe it is good.

Hybrid Automotive has not recommended a deep discharge to near 0V which you have been doing to your old pack for 2 years now. But there's been quite a bit of evidence that having the cells discharge to a deep level can do a lot of good for ailing packs that have deteriorated to a certain level. The biggest concern with deep discharge is that reversing cells at high currents can permanently damage them. In my research I've been able to find around 4-5 people on these forums that have deep discharged and had packs deteriorate to an unusable level. However correlation is not causation, and it's possible some of those people discharged at too high current while others simply had packs that were going to give out anyways, and had nothing to do with the deep discharge treatment.

But I think pretty much everyone would agree, and you now realize, that you were cycling your pack way more than you needed to or should have. So crowdsourcing the average recommendations for treatment, I'd suggest something like this for a pack that is working well:

1. Don't do any grid charging at all if the pack is super healthy.
2. Do a balancing grid charge maybe once a year or up to once every 3 months if you start noticing the pack isn't as healthy anymore. The most obvious way to tell is if you start seeing recals. Other ways to tell is if you no longer see 3-bar hang (in-dash charge level stays at 3 bars for a while when driving), or you can no longer get the assist you're used to seeing on a familiar route.
3. Take a pick, do either the deep discharge you have done before, or the 3 cycle regiment outlined on Hybrid Automotive's website maybe once a year or once every 2 years. But if you do deep discharge, only discharge once, don't do it 3 cycles.

With a spare pack, you should have an easy way to get useful assist for quite a while longer. Good luck!

Edit: It would help to know how you're discharging the pack. What wattage bulbs or value resistors do you use?
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:22 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Hey guys,
First off I want to say thank you all so much for the great responses, I would not be able to fix this issue on my own whatsoever, and sincerely appreciate all the advice given. It's obvious my charging and discharging cycle we're done much too frequently, and likely contributed to the end of this battery pack, or at least to a few of the cells within it. Just for grins and giggles, this process was done for two years, not sure where I said one year but I'm sure somewhere in the posts I might've miss spoken, regardless it was done for two years. For about a year and a half, I used a 500 W heat lamp to discharge the back, after I broke that bulb, I swapped over to 150 W bulb, I just kind of figured the 500 W seems a little high. Now we know everything I was doing was basically too much LOL. Not sure why I didn't really think about swapping a harness. I don't believe it's the tap connector harness, it's the harness with the thick plastic sleeves that are colored, I think red and white are in the mix? Maybe a yellow sleeve as well? I'll post a picture tomorrow of the harness I'd have to take off, driving home today.
I guess the biggest question I have at this point is how to grade charge the spare pack I have without it being in the car? I thought the charger harness had to be plugged into some other stuff to??
I'm also a little curious as to how to read the tap voltages on the spare pack if it is not hooked up to the BCM?
Like you said though, conservatism sounds like the best alternative and will likely avoid discharging in the future if at all possible.
I might look into getting one of those hobby chargers though, just to salvage the decent sticks in the pack I have right now, and keep around as spares if they go south down the line.
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