I'm a new owner - have had my gen 1 Insight only about 3 weeks so far. I have a few questions that I hope the more exerienced owners can answer.
First, let me describe my environment in which the car is being used. I live in metro Austin Texas where we have really hilly terrain and very hot weather. I'm talking commuting highways with up to 16% grades and very few roads that are NOT hilly. I'm also talking current daily highs of 102 to 104 degrees and VERY direct overhead sun - heat stroke is a real hazard for humans here right now. We all nomrally stay indoors or carry a water bottle when outdoors.
So, the environment is hot for the battery, the grades require lots of battery discharges and recharges as you drive, and the air conditioning runs ALL the time. That also means no idle-stop for the engine.
I ALWAYS leave the AC set on "auto" and at 70 degrees, as my job requires crisp clothing appearance.
The ar is a Gen 1, 2006, with manual transmission and air conditioning.
When I bought the car, the cumulative MPG on the odomter display was 54.7 MPG. It had 62,500 miles on it. It now has about a 1000 more miles on it.
1. The battery graph on my car, on any typical 40 minute commute through the roller caster hills, in 100 degree weather, cycles from full (20 bars) to 2 or even 1 bar, and back up, multiple times. Normal under the conditions stated?
2. Even when I have 20 bars of battery charge before starting a LONG uphll grade, the battery charge falls fairly rapidly sometimes. It does vary in rate o fall, on temperature outside - when it is hot and the hill is long and the AC is running full tilt, it seems to fall more quickly, which I guess makes sense. But, it can sometimes fall fast enough that on a climb that takes 1/2 minute to a minute, at 60 mph, I am forced to downshift to 4th or even 3rd to maintain at least 55 mph so I don't cause a traffic problem. Normal?
3. I recently did a "relearn" per the procedure published on this forum by Hybrid-Battery-repair. Right after doing that, the commute into work was noteworthy for three reasons: (1) the battery graph stayed higher longer on grades, (2) the car felt noticebly more powerful, and (3) fuel mileage was 2 to 4 mpg better for the trip (trip is more or less same every day). Is this normal?
4. I have NOT been getting the same 54.7 MPG as the cumulative odometer reading shows. I mostly get quite a bit less when I take TRUE everage (i.e. leave the MPG on trip meter A undisturbed between gas fillups), and see high 40s as average, even though when I do specific trip MPG using trip meter B, I see low to mid 50s as an average quite often FOR THE SPECFIC TRIP, and sometimes low 60s for 6 mile trips in cooler (80 degree) weather. For example, on one cool morning when the AC load was low (78 degrees F ambient with an AC setting of 70 degrees), I got 63 MPG for the same 25 mile commute that normally shows low to mid 50s. Is this normal?
5. If I make a suburban trip that includes 70 mph tollway for half the 40 mile trip, and I do travel at 70 when on it, and 55 to 60 mph the rest of the time on suburban highways with fairly frequent traffic lights, I see mid 50s for MPG for the 40 mile trip, with AC running fult tilt and 100 degrees outdoors. Normal?
Yes, I know I'm not hypermiling or even driving particularly carefully yet, but give me time to adapt. I'm a hotrodder by background - my last car was a supercharged Mustang with 460 hp). Is any of the above abnormal for an Insight?
I can't comment on most of your issues, as I live in Wisconsin, never use the A/C and have a pretty flat commute.
Regarding point #2- You should not stay in 5th gear up a long hill if you are using a lot of battery assist. You are better off shifting down into 4th or 3rd or even 2nd if need be. I usually use 3rd on moderate hills since 4th isn't much different than 5th and will still require you to use too much assist. I like to only use my battery assist for needed accelerations like taking off from a stop, or a quick increase in speed while driving. I rarely use assist on hills, instead opting to mildly increase throttle just short of the assist kicking in, or just downshifting and decreasing throttle to accomplish a similar result.
Hope this helps one aspect of your inquiry.
__________________ "Is your car man enough to wear a skirt?"
TPS mod; Scanguage; K&N air filter; Window Tint; Engine block heater; 100% gas (recently)
Hot days and steep hills while running the A/C sounds pretty brutal, not to say the car can't handle it, it is a heavy load for the 1 liter engine though. You are probably seeing the car limit your assist and regen a bit along the way, which would be expected. I think if the relearn helped you it could have found some lost capacity that it 'programmed' itself out of based on seeing less in the past. ...or if it sees lots of heat on one end of the discharge or the other the voltage profile might cut capacity towards one end, likely the fully discharged end as the voltage of NiMh cells reads lower when hot. I know that it gets very careful when the battery is hot as I've seen the regen current limit itself down to 5 bars once at 16 bars state of charge before after about 50 miles of stop and go traffic with the interior of the car roasting even with the windows down.
Considering the size of the engine and the load imposed by air conditioning, hilly terrain, and lots of battery use, dropping to third gear is probably not a bad idea, especially if you are able to control the throttle just under the point where assist kicks in. If you ever want to avoid using assist and save it for a steeper part of the hill, if you search for 'clutch switch' you can find out how to temporarily disable the IMA by tricking the car into thinking you have the clutch pressed in.
Ok, so shifting down is "good". I like that, as I like to shift to keep an engine well above its "lugging" rpm, and thinking about it, hot weather, long steep hills, AC on, and a tiny engine all make that seem very sensible. It also reminds me of a very special modified 2-stroke Aprilia 70cc 2-stroke motorcycle I owned for a short time years ago, that my gifted engine builder friend got to push me and the bike past 75 mph, at about 13000 rpm!
The "clutch switch" thing sounds intriguing. I'll do the search on it!
By the way, I am thoroughly smitten by this car. I just have to figure out how to explain it to my hotrodder friends. They'll think I've gone nuts.
Jim G
Last edited by JimGnitecki; 08-26-2010 at 12:15 AM.
I recall that on long trips in the summer to hot climates that the battery pack in mine would get pretty warm. There would come a point that the battery would not charge until the temperature of the pack was lower, even when pushing a recharge with mima.
If I recall correctly at least one person took a small diameter aluminum hose (like the hose used to vent a clothes dryer - only with a 2" or so diameter) and ran it from a vent that was blowing cold air, under the passenger seat and to the input vent behind the passenger seat to keep the battery cooler. Not the greatest looking mod, but it may help you out in your situation.
I recall that on long trips in the summer to hot climates that the battery pack in mine would get pretty warm. There would come a point that the battery would not charge until the temperature of the pack was lower, even when pushing a recharge with mima.
If I recall correctly at least one person took a small diameter aluminum hose (like the hose used to vent a clothes dryer - only with a 2" or so diameter) and ran it from a vent that was blowing cold air, under the passenger seat and to the input vent behind the passenger seat to keep the battery cooler. Not the greatest looking mod, but it may help you out in your situation.
I think you are describing what Mike Dabrowski (and possibly a few others) did.
The turbo cooler was able to drop the battery temp by 3-5 degrees on one long downhill. The hose was run across the passenger footwell area, along the floor between the seat and the door sill, and then up to the battery cooling fan inlet which had an aluminum transition piece to seal the opening.
I would run the fan only when cruising , but on downhills I would give it full AC set for max cooling at 60 F.
The climate control was set for foot output only, and the driver side duct was blocked to route all the air into the pack.
The turbo cooler was able to drop the battery temp by 3-5 degrees on one long downhill. The hose was run across the passenger footwell area, along the floor between the seat and the door sill, and then up to the battery cooling fan inlet which had an aluminum transition piece to seal the opening.
I would run the fan only when cruising , but on downhills I would give it full AC set for max cooling at 60 F.
The climate control was set for foot output only, and the driver side duct was blocked to route all the air into the pack.
I'm not wild about doing this, UNLESS you guys tell me it will really help my battery durability. A little more performance (versus durability) would not be worth it to me, since (a) it hurts the looks of the car and (2) I use commercial car washes (interior too) which would object strongly to the extra fragile thing to work around.
Mike: Does everything I wrote above sound normal for an Insight under the conditions described? Thee car feels fine to me, but I wanted to find out specifically if the relatively rapid cycling between "battery 20 bars" and "battery 2 bars" is to be expected when climbing steep hills (too steep for a Mustang or Corvette in top gear - require a downshift), in 100 degree weather, for 30 + seconds at a time at 60 mph (average hill duration is 1/2 mile or more), with uphills and downhills pretty much constantly - very little flat ground on "The Escarpment" which is where I drive mostly.
If you keep the cabin cool, it should be ok without the turbo cooler.
On the other stuff, it is pretty hard to say if the battery is operating normally without numbers like starting SOC, how many amps for how much time. Peters battery guage shows the information, so that may be easiest way to find out?
Stopwatch, drive up the hill, keeping amps as constant as you can, and see how many amps for how many minutes the pack can produce until it stops giving assist.
Peter, maybe you can include an AH capacity test in the gage?
I think my situation is pretty much same as you. I have a 02 MT Insight with 180k miles. I run the a/c also pretty much all the time set at 75*. I usually average around 55 in the summers because of the Texas heat here in houston. Although we dont have hills. The only "hills" i see are the ups and downs of the highway. Usually when I have the a/c on, I also tend to not hypermile and end up driving faster (around 65-70mph)
but during the colder months in texas, I can get 70-75mpg running without a/c. I think its pretty normal since the a/c is probably the biggest load on the little engine
__________________
2002 Silver MT 225k miles LMPG - 60.8
Best Tank Distance = 722 miles @ 74.2
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Is this all normal for a Gen 1 Insight?
