Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by porshuh

I only did the break down because I was curious. I agree that there are many reasons other than money for converting to EV, and I applaud anyone who takes on the task. I think it's super cool...and we have such great lightweight cars for the project to boot!

I see nothing wrong with doing a cost break down ... How much will watching TV cost you? How much will it cost to run the AC this summer? ... etc... It is one aspect of the Cost / Benefit of a product... just keep in mind like with everything else you spend money on , it is only one aspect.

I would add that if you want to do a cost break down you will want to include a bit more than just a simple fuel costs vs vehicle cost ... you will also want to include other operating cost differences between the two things over the expected operating life of the two products ... although people may differ , things like:

• Maintenance Costs ( ICEs cost more )
• Rate of price changes $/Gallon vs $/kwh ($/Gallon rising faster for several decades)
• Expected useful operating service life.

And if you like you could also try to factor in some of the more difficult / indirect aspects of the two products ... like:

• Pollution differences effects on health care costs... ICEs pollute more.
• The massive amount of electricity used to extract, refine, and transport the ICE fuel ... over 40+ TWh per year in U.S. Refineries alone... gas station pumps are electric ( not even cost effective for them to run the gas pumps from gas ) ... etc.
• The ICE fuel portion of the about ~$12 Billion per year the U.S. government subsidies fossil fuels.. ( you pay in taxes ) ... vs the much smaller Tax $ going into electricity subsidies.

etc... etc.

[MN Driver]

It depends on how you look at cost analysis. I did cost analysis buying my Insight and more or less waited until the price was right before I bought each of them, inluding insurance costs, expected maintenance costs, etc. The difference with electric components is that they are still worth something if you decide to sell them and many components are available secondhand. If someone wanted to convert a car for cheap they could do it cheap and as an added benefit if they wanted to move those components to the next car they can because the controller, motor, fuses, etc. don't care what car they are in. This sort of thing is harder to do with gas components. Of course the batteries are the make/break cost factor of the situation to most people which is an item that has and will become cheaper over time. If I compare the price that my Insight cost me plus the cost to convert it, I'd still be paying less than a Nissan Leaf for example but will have a car that is more efficient and actually be the car I want. I don't mind that the body has more years on it, doesn't matter one bit to me, but it would if it were steel, which the Nissan Leaf is and the Insight isn't so it could be possible that the body of an Insight could outlast that of a Leaf and any electrical component troubleshootign and replacement of a conversion I could do myself but with a Leaf or another electric car I am at the mercy of a dealership to supply the part for the price they want me to pay and I might need them to use their own special code readers or other equipment to sort of the issue.

Food for thought. It really depends on what you want. I like my Insight for its aerodynamics and light weight but in general would rather have a car with more performance, less operating cost, and less fluid and parts maintenance(get rid of this EGR plate/valve crap, oil changes, coolant swaps, valve gap, etc) even though the costs are already very low, I just don't like needing to do it all on an ongoing basis. In the future if money pans out I may have solar on my roof, in which case the electricity would be augmented either partially or fully for my house and my car. Cost might not initially be there but the components in the end are worth something still and if they are used with future cars and even if sold second-hand its hard to lose as long as someone sticks with them. It all depends on how you do your lifecycle cost.

[Cobb]

Nuff, said. It looks more to me as to how I can spend 100 grand on making an ev vs a range on electric expo. Considering how light weight the car is this could be done with a lot less power and pack. I too would rather see it done with IMA parts vs being out sourced.

Originally Posted by porshuh

In my area - each kwh costs about $0.15 out the door. So $0.15 / 5.4 miles = $0.02777 per mile.

Also in my area - 87 octane gas is $3.50/gal. An Insight pulling a measly 60mpg works out to $3.50 / 60mpg = $0.058333 per mile

That's a difference of about $0.0305 a mile.

So for every $1000 you spend on the conversion, you have to drive (100,000 pennies / 3.05 pennies = ) 32,786 miles to break even. Just sayin'...

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by MN Driver

It depends on how you look at cost analysis.

100% agree... +what has already been said about not everything in life a 100% financial decision.

Originally Posted by MN Driver

If I compare the price that my Insight cost me plus the cost to convert it, I'd still be paying less than a Nissan Leaf for example but will have a car that is more efficient and actually be the car I want.

100% agree ... what cost to me for what final product to me ... nothing wrong with buying a Leaf for some people ... but for me ... the DIY aspect is a plus not a minus ... so for the same money something like a Leaf or a Volt or whatever costs , I could do a lot to do my conversion , completely personalized to be the way I want it to be... I like John's project ... but for the same money going in ... I definitely would have built a very different vehicle for my own person tastes.

For me ... energy efficiency per mile is a high priority ... There are not many other vehicles I could use as a donor / base that offer as lower a energy per mile profile than the Light weight , aerodynamic Gen-1 Insight ... and mine is already paid for ... so using it doesn't have any additional cost to buy something else... that's hard to compete with.

[jasman18]

Originally Posted by IamIan

For me ... energy efficiency per mile is a high priority ... There are not many other vehicles I could use as a donor / base that offer as lower a energy per mile profile than the Light weight , aerodynamic Gen-1 Insight ... and mine is already paid for ... so using it doesn't have any additional cost to buy something else... that's hard to compete with.

What other cars would you use as a donor?

[MN Driver]

Originally Posted by jasman18

What other cars would you use as a donor?

I'll let IamIan answer the question but put my own thoughts into it.

If I wanted the smallest and lightest car with reasonable aerodynamics that could seat 4 or 5, I'd go for a Suzuki Swift/Geo Metro, very light weight and even though it might not really be comfortable for 4 adults, it can still get them in for a pinch.

I'd personally probably go with a 1995+ Toyota Tercel if it wasn't for the Insight or if I needed more than 2 seats, aero is great, size is decent, I really like Toyotas, more room in the car and trunk for batteries plus space for stuff and just around 2000 pounds, its light for its size.

If I went for a lightweight AWD/4x4 car, I'd go after the Subaru Impreza(I think 1994 or 1995 was the lightest, I'd have to check, but its one of those trims in the mid 90's) to convert but there may be challenges and I don't really consider them that lightweight or aerodynamics but for the purpose I'd probably make that my second conversion if I somehow struck the money for it as it would be a pretty nice winter snow/ice car with the AWD.

I can't really think of anything that is as aerodynamic, lightweight, 4+ star crash rating, and easy to get at a decent price than an Insight. Bonus to me was that measuring out the battery/controller/area above fuel pump area of the Insight inside the car, its a pretty big area of space where I don't think I'll need to chop the body in any way at all to get everything in and have a 20kwh pack without paying for more expensive high density cells. My pack capacity is more or less going to be based on what I can actually fit in the car without cutting and rewelding aluminum body/frame to get cells in as I want to avoid interfering with the stock safety design.

If I had an unlimited some of money I'd make an electric out of a Suburu 360, Fiat 500(classic, not the new one), Honda 600, etc. Many of these were very small and were close to 1000 pounds and since a car like the Subaru 360, for example, has no power steering, power breaks, and pretty minimal electronics it would be a very simple conversion of pretty much only replacing the engine apart from the integrated engine/transmission unit needing its pistons taken out and a shaft and bearing set put in since the transmission can't be seperated as its all one unit, which someone else already has done before. Problem is they had thin enough sheet metal that if you lean on the car it will dent, so I've pretty much abandoned the thought all together and I'm not certain of the aerodynamics of any of those.

[3-Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Eli

Most projects of this nature aren't practical, but they sure are fun.

I agree.

I had the fantastic opportunity to drive a friend's Chevy Volt just last week.

All I can say is WOW. The car is absolutely smooth and quiet!

Yes, my Insight can get about triple the mileage, but there certainly is something to be said about driving totally "green". Oh, did I mention that he has a 10kw solar panel setup on his roof?

So yes, the Volt or any plug-in with the right range, can be self-sustainable.

Jim.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by jasman18

What other cars would you use as a donor?

There is no other donor car options that come to mind that would equal all the benefits of a Gen-1 Insight Donor ... at least for my own criteria ... different people with different criteria will make that very different of course.

One of my main criteria is energy per mile , which is a combination of aerodynamics and weight ... not the only factor , cost, service life ( vehicle condition ), etc... there are lots of factors ... and individual preferences vary of course as well ... for example ... From my perspective any vehicle using a lot of steel is an automatic -1 in my book ... the reasonable expected service life of a steel vehicle is just not nearly as good as an aluminum one ... treat them both the same ... the aluminum will pretty much always last significantly longer ... of course some people have driven steel based vehicles for several decades... so for some this is a non-issue.

For me ... If I had to do a non Gen-1 Insight ... Perhaps vehicle options like:

A Twike Active:
Behind the Insight due to significantly higher price and lower crash safety.
But using about ~1/2 the Insight's Energy per mile ... CdA + Weight @50MPH = Nice.
The only vehicle in production , that I know of ( even low volume production ) that tempts me away from my Gen-1 Insight.

For a mass produced vehicle ... there are several that would be close to each other ... but none that I know of that equal the energy per mile of the Gen-1 Insight ... CdA + Weight ... AFAIK you would have to pay a lot more $ for any alternative that can even equal the Gen-I Insight.

The Audi A2 ... had a heavy use of Aluminum as well ... and some models have been reasonably light weight and aerodynamic... just not as good as the Gen-1 Insight.

If you don't care about Aluminum ... there are a lot more decent options ... Honda CRX , Toyota MR2 , etc ... look for the lowest energy per mile vehicle that meets your criteria.