Does the IMA battery cost effectively wipe out all the gas savings on an insight?

[Balboa]

Knowing that you would eventually have to replace the IMA which would cost about $2500. I'm sure a dealer would charge more. But someone asked me is there real savings on gas considering it is a bit expensive to replace the IMA? Now I'm not too sure. Say you buy a regular economical non-hybrid car like a geo metro which gets 45mpg or so. I wonder if in the long run, the Geo Metro is the more economical car because you wouldn't have to replace an IMA battery?

[TopFuelTim]

I think so, depending on how you drive and the distance of your commute. I justified mine, calculating a savings of $1250 per year calculated at 68mpg avg versus driving my Corvette, which delivers 24mpg avg. My calculations were based on $3.60 per gallon. I am keeping the Corvette, driving it about once every two weeks. I calculated this on a five year overall plan for this one (that's how long the payments last), so barring major problems, the car will come close to paying for itself after five years just in gas savings. Of course, it had a new battery in January 2010, so it may be marginal in 2016 when it is paid off. I enjoy saving the gas, and watching peoples jaw drop when they ask about the gas mileage, so you could add that to the equation as well.

My .02 worth,
Tim

[racer26]

The insight is the most fuel-efficient production vehicle ever built, and it has nothing to do with the IMA. Yes the IMA replacement cost is large, but if cared for properly (driven on a regular basis, and possibly grid charged occasionally later in life), the IMA battery can last 10+ years.

I bought my insight with 156,000km on it in May for $6500CAD, and it came with a set of winter tires, mounted on rims. I drive ~60,000km in a year (170km round trip commute to work, plus my leisure time driving). I get about 950-1100km/tank of gas in the insight. I was driving a 1998 Acura 1.6EL (Acura's version of the Civic Si) prior to this, and on the same 40L tank of gas, I was lucky if I could crack 550km on a tank. A 40L tank of gas here costs just under $50CAD. My average economy in that car was 7.9L/100km record was 7.4, and I consistently turn in 3.7-3.9L/100km tanks in the insight and have turned as low as 3.4.

Working the math out, the EL used basically twice as much fuel to go the same distance. The insight needs ~60 $50 tanks of gas to do my year of driving, or $3000. The EL would have needed $6000 in fuel, so it saves me $3000/year in gas. The car will have paid for itself in 2 years, tops.

The IMA battery can be replaced if you do it yourself with a brand new BetterBattery which is not only new, but superior to the Honda battery in every measurable way, for $1800 + shipping.

Furthermore, due to its aluminum construction the insight will never rust or rot away. Find me a Geo Metro for sale that isn't a rotted out sack of scrap by now, 10+ years after the last ones were sold. Plus, IMO, the insight is a much nicer car to begin with.

[Eli]

The answer to this question depends entirely on how much you drive and what type of average fuel economy you can manage.

When I was driving ~100,000 miles/year, the Insight saved me $500/mo in fuel costs - and this was back when gasoline was ~$2.75/gallon, averaging about ~55MPG. I could have replaced the battery every year and still been $4000/year ahead. When driving that much, the battery will last much longer than 100,000 miles/1yr though.

I am not sure where the break-even point is, but just crunch some numbers for your personal useage patterns and it's not hard to figure out.

[Bowski]

Originally Posted by Balboa

Knowing that you would eventually have to replace the IMA which would cost about $2500. I'm sure a dealer would charge more. But someone asked me is there real savings on gas considering it is a bit expensive to replace the IMA? Now I'm not too sure. Say you buy a regular economical non-hybrid car like a geo metro which gets 45mpg or so. I wonder if in the long run, the Geo Metro is the more economical car because you wouldn't have to replace an IMA battery?

Let's say you get 150,000mi out of a battery under ideal conditions.
The Honda gets 60mpg vs the Geo 45mpg. If my calculations are correct
that's a difference of 833 gallons @ $3.7 ~ $3083

[Varak]

Originally Posted by Eli

I am not sure where the break-even point is, but just crunch some numbers for your personal useage patterns and it's not hard to figure out.

That is the key. It is mainly dependent on how many miles you drive.

Another consideration, though, is the fact that any car is going to have expensive repairs over time if you drive it a lot.

The Insight has only a small handful of major repairs that seem to reoccur (IMA battery and ISB are the main ones). And while these may be expensive, the overall maintenance costs of the car are significantly lower than other cars, even if you have to replace the IMA battery.

Insights are easily reasing 200K, 300K even 400+K miles with basic maintenance. How many Geo Metros can say the same?

A Geo Metro is going to have significantly higher repair costs than the Insight due to more things breaking down.

Also, driving the Insight is significantly more comfortable than driving the Metro.

Here's a few numbers based on my Insight:

Total miles driven - 130K
Gas costs - $6956 - 5.29 cents/mile
Repair costs - $4996 - 3.85 cents/mile

Total - 9.14 cents/mile

That 9.14 cents/mile operational cost is untouchable by any other car, period.

My previous car was solid and averaged 15 cents/mile (10 for gas, 5 for repairs). Over 130K miles, that is a savings of $7800.

[72chevel]

So what if you just disconnect the battery and drive it like that? What kind of mileage will that net?

[ackattacker]

Originally Posted by Bowski

Let's say you get 150,000mi out of a battery under ideal conditions.
The Honda gets 60mpg vs the Geo 45mpg. If my calculations are correct
that's a difference of 833 gallons @ $3.7 ~ $3083

Many people get more than 150,000 miles out of the battery. Perversely, the more you drive the longer the battery lasts. It's sitting around that kills the battery.

Additionally, as many people have pointed out the insight is a much more pleasant car to drive than a Geo Metro and will last longer. The hybrid also saves some (perhaps trivial) amount in brake pad wear, uses slightly less oil and coolant, and the 12 volt battery requires less frequent replacement.

[Eli]

Originally Posted by Varak

That is the key. It is mainly dependent on how many miles you drive.

Another consideration, though, is the fact that any car is going to have expensive repairs over time if you drive it a lot.

The Insight has only a small handful of major repairs that seem to reoccur (IMA battery and ISB are the main ones). And while these may be expensive, the overall maintenance costs of the car are significantly lower than other cars, even if you have to replace the IMA battery.

Insights are easily reasing 200K, 300K even 400+K miles with basic maintenance. How many Geo Metros can say the same?

A Geo Metro is going to have significantly higher repair costs than the Insight due to more things breaking down.

Also, driving the Insight is significantly more comfortable than driving the Metro.

Here's a few numbers based on my Insight:

Total miles driven - 130K
Gas costs - $6956 - 5.29 cents/mile
Repair costs - $4996 - 3.85 cents/mile

Total - 9.14 cents/mile

That 9.14 cents/mile operational cost is untouchable by any other car, period.

My previous car was solid and averaged 15 cents/mile (10 for gas, 5 for repairs). Over 130K miles, that is a savings of $7800.

Yep. This is what it boils down to. I had a long post typed out getting into exactly this and firefox crapped out.

At 60MPG average and $3.60/gallon, average cost per mile is ~$0.058. Even considering the transmission I had to put in #1, that brings me to $0.079/mile. Assuming I had to replace my battery out of pocket in 2010(it was replaced under warranty), that brings me to $0.106/mile over the last 73,000 miles.

That would be an average of 34MPG. It's difficult to average 34MPG in most any car, and as Varak said there's no such thing as a used car that doesn't need repairs over such a large time frame. It's not fair to compare the fuel costs only of a non hybrid with the fuel+repair costs of our Insights. You have to factor in repair costs on the Geo, which would not be cheap.... They're pieces of garbage compared to the Insight.

[kennysmith]

Besides, once you've driven a hybrid can you really ever go back? Idling in my pickup at a light just about kills me now.

We have Gen 1 Insight and HCH. The 2003 HCH has 170K on the original battery and seems fine.