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Old 10-31-2011, 10:52 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Interesting 'wish list' and suggestions!
Here's some thoughts which in most cases would no doubt ante up the costs but possibly could increase efficiency or ease of adaptation in some regards.
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TIGER Turbo/Electric Generator Device:

I'd too'd also like to see that TIGER turbo/electric exhaust heat recovery system as an add on to the Insight.

Perhaps with some modification: such as a Turbo/Hydraulic device powering a remote mounted Hydraulic/Electric generator. This might be done for reasons of spacial constraints in the engine bay for one big unit, but, perhaps more for heat isolation issues, and longevity of the electric generator component and it's bearings.
A heat exchanger for cooling the drive fluid to a remote mounted generator, if required, could be used to partially warm the air intake to an optimum level.
The TIGER devices' turbos' sealed bearing would likely need be cooled by engine coolant; heat from that part of the system might also be recovered to warm an intake air system with a heat exchanger set into the intake.

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ERF - Electro-Rheological Fluids:

Another thought would be to utilize electro-rheological fluids (ERF) as the fluid drive coupling if the turbo/electric unit was one piece. Imagine two spinning plates, one from the turbo, the other to the generator, set close together where the viscosity/friction of the fluid between them can be changed dynamically almost immediately by the amount of electrical current passed through the fluid. Conditions of how fast the unit spun up could be optimized via electrical/rheological control of the fluid for both optimal acceleration and thermal recovery.
The turbo part of the TIGER in the exhaust stream could be controlled to almost freewheel or alternatively spin up the electrical generator as required, by changing the viscosity altered by volts applied to the ERF between the plates.
Not sure exactly how it works [guessing a polarity change?/conformational change? of a divalent molecule??? ] but practically it's something like: the more volts then the stiffer the fluid or depending maybe visa versa.
Other than putting energy in the wrong direction I suppose for performance, but no reason the TIGER system could not be used to temporarily speed gas flow along for more power output for the engine, by making the generator of a TIGER type generator system become a motor momentarily, ...somewhat defeating it's energy miser aspect.

On the downside, development of a turbo/hydraulic component linked to a hydraulic/electric rheologically variable circulating fluid coupling for the Tiger system would no doubt add more weight and complexity, and loss of overall efficiency, not to mention perhaps higher cost compared to a direct drive type unit with reduction gears etc, …but on the pro side such a split system may allow for a variety of placement possibilities of the electrical generator component somewhat isolated from the 800C hot exhaust parts and better longevity .
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ERF SHOCKS:

ERF technology is also now used in such items as for shock absorber/dampers to alter the fluid characteristics passing through the shock absorber/dampers valving to render a softer or harder road feel to the suspension.

An ERF shock system could be set-up to vary with road conditions dynamically depending on inputs of shaft movement/amplitude of oscillation, rate of change/big bumps or smooth surface etc; and perhaps even real sophisticated stuff like weight transfers, front to back, and side to side in the chassis concomitantly. Such could be taken into consideration by some pre-set algorithms determined by calculation or experimental manual twisting of dials, and then computer controlled.
This stuff is no doubt now already or soon part of high end aftermarket shocks for a few cars such as porsche. The applicability may be altered by cost.
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The same ERF shock absorber technology could be used for something like an aftermarket engine vibration damper where the viscosity of the special fluid could be cycled in voltage synchronously based on sensors not unlike that used to offset engine vibrations via the strength of IMA pulses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
Oh ... add linear generator shock absorbers to my above list as well ... can't believe I forgot those... what was I thinking
Saw this after I got into typing up my post. I wonder if an ERF system would be a good addition to the linear generator shock absorber if I understand how it may work. Hadn't heard of those.

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FCX ULTRA-CAPACITOR

Fundamentally, Honda's1999 FCX ultra-capacitor system with upgrades due to advances in more recent technology would be real nice piggybacked/integrated onto the IMA with MIMA.

The greater rate of energy capture in situations like regenerative braking may result in greater efficiency and better braking with the fast loading ultra-capacitors. Also, rapid discharge for acceleration would be an advantage, ... the 2 page article complete with pics linked above may be of interest.

All regenerated sources of power, such as from the braking or a TIGER system could come initially through the FCX ultra-capacitor system for fast uptake and slowly charge the IMA battery, or power the IMA motor with a quick burst of speed if require.
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Not sure how an ultra-capacitor enhanced braking system would have to be managed to not lock the wheels etc but it might possibly utilize some overriding signals from the ABS.
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I wonder how much Ultra-capacitors are in capacity and price now compared to ten years back. At this point any computer control circuitry is well beyond my understanding likely, but it would be intriguing if the control circuit diagrams for the FCX are available to those 'in the know' who could possibly fab one up. Just a thought.
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TRACTION ASSIST

Although it would not save fuel directly, I'd like to see some form of traction assist involving the IMA motor allowing for a few degrees of slippage i.e. 5% in soft slippy conditions. While slip is being bad for economy, it might help better getting underway in such situations. A 'launch' switch with variable settings is no doubt possible, also feeding off of the ABS signals to alter electrical power sent to the IMA.
Currently, the IMA will stop giving power to the wheels when slippage is detected. When it happened last spring in mud during the melt, it kind of felt like a big loss of power just when the momentum needed preserved, the wheels hooked up and shot out big discrete chunks of mud sorta like 'dig'-'dig'-'dig' in luggy pulses before the engine rpm spooled up.
The stock setup was not really confidence inspiring but the car did made it out the soft stuff.
Tires have the most to do with the traction of course and there's lots of variation well discussed elsewhere.

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MOVEABLE SHUTTERS

The idea of movable shutters for the radiator may be good in concept but in practicality in cold conditions, I would have some reservations. I like the idea of shutters in principle, but the ice and muck thrown up in traffic and picked up going through deep snow and the stuff melting and freezing rapidly due to wind chill might stick the shutters tight when they need be open.
If what is envisioned is something like venetian blinds slats that are used on some big diesel trucks and stationary power plants, all I can say is that up north the systems can freeze shut and jam with ice and melted snow that freezes adjacent the hot radiator.
In all likelihood for several months in many location with hard winter they would be 'closed for the season' anyways, and a low tech buttoned up winterfront made of cardboard, maybe a bit of duct tape and vinyl, plus mechanics wire neatly twisted thru the cars grill to fasten them, with perhaps a flap or two to open up if required, may be just as effective or even better in retaining heat.
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No doubt there is a law of diminishing returns involved in lots of the proposed technological enhancements mentioned, but it would certainly be interesting to try a few of them that don't cost much. The first thing I shall do in an effort to save fuel and run a bit hotter air in winter, is close-in my d-i-y 4 inch flexible tube hot air intake to the catalytic heat shield area a bit better than just the tube in proximity. I'll try and make a partial enclosure using some kludged together aluminum foil roasting pans or somesuch. Perhaps with a bit of flat black high temp paint on the inside.
Don't know if a well bungied mini canvas 'underbelly tarp' is in the plans for my Insight, but that could be cheap and retain a bit more heat.
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JHMZE1371YT800225 OBDIIC&C Nüvi, Rostra, Fumoto,^IAT
Current Fuel Economy: 198,000km @ 4.1 L/100km LMPG
* 2.8 L/100km over 525 km @ 83 kph *
36 km/L * 84 u.s. mpg * 101 imp.mpg @ 52 mph
"Fuel Consumed is Wealth Lost Forever"*

Last edited by AbCaRed00; 10-31-2011 at 11:32 AM. Reason: links etc
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:46 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I would also like to see Gasoline compression ignition replace lean burn. Same advantages of lean burn minus the NOx emissions, which also means no running rich to purge the NOx trap.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:29 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I would think that gasoline compression ignition would increase NOx formation. NOx formation happens when cylinder temperatures are high. Could be wrong though? I've not heard much about gasoline compression ignition.
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Insight #1 - Silver '01 5MT @ 158,388 as of 7/11 - Best Tank: 84.5MPG over 807mi

Insight #2 - Silver '01 5MT @ 450,000 as of 1/12 - Best Tank: 86.0MPG over 800mi

Insight #3 - Silver '00 5MT, MIMA #163P, BCM Gauge, OBDIIC&C Gauge, BetterBattery @ 228,869 as of 1/12 - Best Tank: 78.4mpg over 687mi
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:34 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I just want 2 things:

1)All electric mode, but even the new Insight and Civics Don't have it. I know Toyota has the patents for that planetary gear, but look at what Hyundai did. They put the motor/generator where the torque converter should be. Which let's them disengage the ICE. Was Honda that late in the patent game, or they just didn't think about it?

2) Old Tech, I wish it has:
Sunroof/Convertible like the Honda OSM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_OSM
But that's for another thread.

Last edited by jerrydelrey; 10-31-2011 at 12:43 PM. Reason: correct link
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:48 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbCaRed00 View Post
Saw this after I got into typing up my post. I wonder if an ERF system would be a good addition to the linear generator shock absorber if I understand how it may work. Hadn't heard of those.
The Linear Motor/Generator Suspension system ... if you have the wad of money to drop on it ... BOSE has been making one for a few years now... there are a few other minor companies out their as well.

I would prefer the linear motor/generator system over the ERF ... I don't see the ERF offering anything the Linear Motor/Generator can't do better... And the Linear Motor/Generator can do things the ERF can not ... but ... to each their own... I know plenty of people would rather have saved the money take the weight hit to go with conventional automotive steel... it just a personal preference thing.
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:59 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I've been thinking about that TIGERS system all day. That would be so incredibly badass, I'm at a loss for words.

Imagine 6 of the 10 kilowatts the IMA motor puts out coming directly from this device, rather than the batteries, when under full throttle acceleration?

And the TIGERS system could trickle charge the battery probably just about any time the engine is operating. That would be incredibly amazing. Say bye to the background charge!

I want one.
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Insight #1 - Silver '01 5MT @ 158,388 as of 7/11 - Best Tank: 84.5MPG over 807mi

Insight #2 - Silver '01 5MT @ 450,000 as of 1/12 - Best Tank: 86.0MPG over 800mi

Insight #3 - Silver '00 5MT, MIMA #163P, BCM Gauge, OBDIIC&C Gauge, BetterBattery @ 228,869 as of 1/12 - Best Tank: 78.4mpg over 687mi
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:17 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
The Linear Motor/Generator Suspension system ... if you have the wad of money to drop on it ... BOSE has been making one for a few years now... there are a few other minor companies out their as well.

I would prefer the linear motor/generator system over the ERF ... I don't see the ERF offering anything the Linear Motor/Generator can't do better... And the Linear Motor/Generator can do things the ERF can not ... but ... to each their own... I know plenty of people would rather have saved the money take the weight hit to go with conventional automotive steel... it just a personal preference thing.
Had a look at the google patents page and Bose Suspension pages, wow, it's quite impressive , other than $5K cost and couple hundred poundweight mentioned it seems quite good, especially the trick of _jumping_over the 2x6" board with the lexus seen on a youtube vid then bowing down after. lolz. Quite amazing technology. I guess unsprung wt would be a moot point with those shocks/struts.

I can see where those Bose systems would be perfect for something like an ambulance transporting patients over rough ground or a TV vehicle with delicate electronics.
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I'll add another technical innovation for consideration, being reminded by the Bose speaker connection:
a zero back pressure exhaust system [possibly to enhance more efficient operation of a TIGER turbo/generator ] that attenuates engine sounds electronically by layering the cacophonous exhaust note within a very low restriction muffler sized chamber with the sound of the engine exact exhaust note repeated back a half wave out of phase,... amplified precisely to make the staccato noise of the cylinders firing sound like white noise or just a hiss of air out the straightpipe.

Don't know if that zero back pressure 'half phase out' exhaust sound attenuator's on the market or not, just heard about it about a decade ago.
I think the young fellow working on it planned using ceramic cones set in chambers in the 'muffler' to generate the counteracting pulses.
Again cost,weight, likely heat and durability and perceived benefit would be factors. fwiw: Nowadays they're going the other direction it seems and have sound makers for electric cars to duplicate a V10 if desired.
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JHMZE1371YT800225 OBDIIC&C Nüvi, Rostra, Fumoto,^IAT
Current Fuel Economy: 198,000km @ 4.1 L/100km LMPG
* 2.8 L/100km over 525 km @ 83 kph *
36 km/L * 84 u.s. mpg * 101 imp.mpg @ 52 mph
"Fuel Consumed is Wealth Lost Forever"*

Last edited by AbCaRed00; 10-31-2011 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:12 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbCaRed00 View Post
Had a look at the google patents page and Bose Suspension pages, wow, it's quite impressive , other than $5K cost and couple hundred poundweight mentioned it seems quite good, especially the trick of _jumping_over the 2x6" board with the lexus seen on a youtube vid then bowing down after. lolz. Quite amazing technology. I guess unsprung wt would be a moot point with those shocks/struts.
Yup , I like it too... the active system aspect is impressive ... but I myself am more interested in a dynamic passive energy recovery system ... at least that's my preference.

With a rapid dynamic suspension system like that unsprung weight with something like Wheel Motors is largely mitigated ... which I do like wheel motors ... but they aren't on my list because in a wheel motor design you can't recapture the waste heat like you could in a more centralized motor system ... although electric motors produce far less waste heat than a ICE does ... still , I like the idea of the energy scavenging / waste recovery devices... that and wheel motors also take a hit for me because the wheel of a car has to be one of the most abusive environments on the car ... I'd rather not put pricey wheel motors into such an extremely abusive environment... it wouldn't bode well for longevity.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:33 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I think Ian's list ticks most of my boxes.
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Old 11-01-2011, 02:50 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default re: sales marketing , advanced manufacture process' and price point

Quote:
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What marketing? They didn't advertise the 1st gen at all.. lol.
Well,... there was at least one mass advertisement, which probably makes the advert for it all the rarer, [facsimile shown truncated of white space here for when it disappears from ebay There can be found a few rare 8 page Insight specific brochures on ebay if you shop around, but those wouldn't be for wide distribution]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli View Post
I think that's exactly the point though.. even at 20k, they didn't sell well. They wouldn't have sold any if they were 30-40k, and they knew it. Remember that gasoline was $1.25 when the Insight was released. "70MPG? Who needs that?" *drives away in SUV*
I'm not sure where it came from, it's been thrown around here for a while. Nobody knows the exact number. I've heard as high as 50k, but the 30-40k number was given by "someone in the industry".
Just to clear up on the original cost of production vis-a-vis price point, as discussed here:
"Some have speculated that it cost Honda upwards of $40,000 to build each Insight, while Honda insiders put that figure at under $30K."
There's a transcription of a talk given by the Honda Insight Chief Engineer Kazuhiko Tsunoda, titled: "Gaining New Insight Into Aluminum Body Production" as seen in the Knowledge Base of the Insightcentral forum that may provide a partial clue as to how prices were kept down in the highly technological automated process [ie. THIXOTROPHIC DIE CASTING] for parts of this unique hybrid "loss leader".

It indicates:
"To produce Insight at this plant in areas such as aluminum spot welding and arc welding – we were able to utilize the same equipment in the Takanezawa plant as used for NSX. But even here we had to add additional equipment for larger volume production for Insight and S2000. We also made modifications in weld and paint to increase flexibility between aluminum and steel bodies, like S2000, to minimize any additional investment."
Like many good things that are hard to put down [i.e. hybrid Insight], "the first one is always [almost] free", but there was a lot of cost cutting and innovation that went into making it so. As the rare mass advertisement would imply, the first generation Honda Insight, as it sits, has a leg up still on much of the competition and may well be all the more valuable in present times.
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JHMZE1371YT800225 OBDIIC&C Nüvi, Rostra, Fumoto,^IAT
Current Fuel Economy: 198,000km @ 4.1 L/100km LMPG
* 2.8 L/100km over 525 km @ 83 kph *
36 km/L * 84 u.s. mpg * 101 imp.mpg @ 52 mph
"Fuel Consumed is Wealth Lost Forever"*

Last edited by AbCaRed00; 11-03-2011 at 10:53 AM. Reason: remove link to now sold brochure
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