P1449 w/78 subcode on 2000 MT and battery ID question

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Panasonic sticks are orange. Sanyo sticks are yellow. We were never able to measure any difference between the two. Since condition matters more than age, it really doesn't matter how you mix the orange and yellow sticks.

In mid 2003 Honda started using Sanyo sticks in their Civics. The Insights all appear to have been furnished with orange sticks, while almost all 2003-2005 Civics have Sanyo.

Later, Panasonic acquired Sanyo. Still later (2008?), Panasonic backed out of Panasonic EV (the japanese partnership with Toyota) which was the company producing the orange sticks and the Toyota slices (and the green/orange 2006-2008 Civic sticks). Panasonic EV is now known as PrimeEarth EV and may have recently been acquired by a company on the chinese mainland.

In 2009 (?) Panasonic-Sanyo sold off their US-based NiMH business to Mexico-based FDK who does not make a comparable cell anymore (we tested all their products).

Before anyone bothers, no you can't buy cells from PrimeEarth EV. Their contractual obligations will not allow it.

There is another manufacturers of cells for Civics that Honda has been using since 2010 or so. Apparently these cells are different enough from the original cells that Honda has different MCM software and enforces the correct software with the correct cells by cutting the PTC circuit so the car can identify which brand it has. These are not going into Insights, probably due to the BCM redesign that would be needed.

Originally Posted by Subdewd2

I might be mistaken, I'm new here, but I believe I read the shrink wrap on sticks after a certain date changed color.

[yogaguy]

Originally Posted by Hybrid-Battery-Repair

From anecdotal evidence here, the lifespan of 2008+ warranty batteries appears to be about 2-3 years. That is when the documentation started to indicate that the warranty batteries were refurbished ones. In early 2010 Honda purchased a couple refurbished batteries from us. We believe they were "checking the competition".

How do your refurbished batteries do in comparison to the refurbished Honda batteries? And what's the current cost?
Thanks

[Eli]

lol....

Hybrid Battery Repair is no longer in business. I would venture a guess that Ron would say to stay far, far away from refurbished batteries in general.

Interesting information though, particularly on the newer Civic cells.

I recently put some stock sticks into the upgraded testing rig for analysis. After dealing with the new sticks for so long, it's amazing how craptacular they are. One stick shot up to (over) 1.665V per cell under only 40A of charge, pegging my analog to digital converters. Talk about high IR! It probably would have just vaporized at 70A.

Back to the OP:

You can't really tell definitively that the battery was replaced in 2010, just that it has been replaced before. If you have yellow sticks and newer computers, it has been replaced sometime in the last 5 years or so.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Hybrid-Battery went bankrupt due to the costs of honoring warranties on refurbished batteries, so no, I am not in business. Autoforums hasn't changed my login back to my name, so that's why you're seeing Hybrid-Battery-Repair.

The earlier repaired batteries had a 2-3 year life on average, while the later ones were more like a year. The variation is larger (some longer, some shorter) than Honda, but that is most likely due to Honda having a much larger supply of bad packs for raw materials.

My opinion is that, with the currently available junkyard sticks, any repair is doomed to failure within a year.

Originally Posted by yogaguy

How do your refurbished batteries do in comparison to the refurbished Honda batteries? And what's the current cost?
Thanks

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by Eli

You can't really tell definitively that the battery was replaced in 2010, just that it has been replaced before. If you have yellow sticks and newer computers, it has been replaced sometime in the last 5 years or so.

You can tell if it was replaced after 2007 by the BCM number, but nothing else. Also, I DOUBT you'll see yellow sticks in a Honda warranty battery for an Insight. If they're yellow, look for Hybrid-Battery's warranty sticker.

[rajuncajun]

So where are the new cells coming from used in the 'better battery' sold by the 3rd party vendors? Is there evidence those packs are lasting longer?

[Rush]

Originally Posted by Hybrid-Battery-Repair

Hybrid-Battery went bankrupt due to the costs of honoring warranties on refurbished batteries

Ron refurbished my under warranty pack twice... without any hesitation, IIRC he even paid for one of the shipments.

Originally Posted by Hybrid-Battery-Repair

My opinion is that, with the currently available junkyard sticks, any repair is doomed to failure within a year.

This is a milestone statement, I'd even go as far as to expand it and say that ANY original stick is doomed to failure within a year.

I really don't have any evidence to substantiate that, no tests, no data to show. But I think that the number of 'grid chargers', both Mikes and the other 'rip offs' show that people are nursing their packs, milking the last watt out of them. I know I did and I'm really happy that I was able to get a MaxIMA pack from Eli.

I think that all the emphasis on 'refurbishing', on taking any of the old sticks and putting them thru charge/discharge cycles to rebalance, etc them is just wasted effort. As soon as they get into a battery pack that is being used normally in an Insight/Civic, they will in all probability fail, throw an IMA code, within a year.

I personally would really like to see more of the NEW 8Ah sticks/packs being experimented with and the results of Peters P50 A123 pack posted.

[Rush]

Originally Posted by rajuncajun

So where are the new cells coming from used in the 'better battery' sold by the 3rd party vendors?

This is an excellent question. The new cells are coming from China. Only the actual vendors know who the seller is. I've tried, spent hours, contacting the various chinese players and no one has provided an acceptable cell with back up data that says it will perform adequately.

Originally Posted by rajuncajun

Is there evidence those packs are lasting longer?

Another great question - The only evidence I've seen is that both Ron, who initiated the search and starting selling his BB, and Eli have said that the new 8Ah cell performs better than the original 6.5Ah cell. Time wise the oldest pack of the new 8Ah cells is in Eli's car, probably 2+ years now and he hasn't reported any problems with it, and I'm sure he has put it thru some pretty exhaustive testing.

I have heard of rumors of some of new sticks being defective, where the weld between cells does not holdup and breaks, but nothing that I can really substantiate and these sticks/cells were said to be from a different vendor.

So by inference, it seems that there are 2 vendors (maybe more?) that sell the 8Ah cells that are being used in the new packs.

But again, all the technical information about the NEW sticks comes from 4 sources, Ron, Eli, Peter and Mike. Nobody else has volunteered any technical info, as far as I remember.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

With the exception of "sample defects" (defective cells that died within the first week of use), I am not aware of a single failure of a BetterBattery and they've been on the road for more than 18 months. This is better than Honda's refurb batteries which start to show a smattering of failures after only a year.

They have not existed long enough to have 2 or 3 year lifespan figures. They are built better, which makes a difference in performance and SHOULD make a difference in lifespan. At a minimum, they aren't worse.

(BTW, there were only three packs that had "sample defects" and they were immediately repaired. There were also a few batteries that were shipped out assembled improperly with sticks reversed. These were also repaired promptly and the reversed sticks replaced with fresh ones. Don't ask me HOW people can fit a square peg into a hex hole, but they did it a few times.)

The manufacturer of the cells is still a secret, but it that secret is now shared by several vendors, as the manufacturer does not want to deal with small vendors (less than 1000 sticks per year) or small shipment sizes (less than 200 sticks per shipment). We regularly had shipments of 1000 sticks come in (1,250 kg).

Originally Posted by rajuncajun

So where are the new cells coming from used in the 'better battery' sold by the 3rd party vendors? Is there evidence those packs are lasting longer?

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by Rush

I think that all the emphasis on 'refurbishing', on taking any of the old sticks and putting them thru charge/discharge cycles to rebalance, etc them is just wasted effort. As soon as they get into a battery pack that is being used normally in an Insight/Civic, they will in all probability fail, throw an IMA code, within a year.

The individual cells of the packs are mostly good, but if they do not all match each other, the battery will fail.

In the old days - like 3 years ago - this was a viable option because many, many sticks had all six cells matching each other. The only task was to match sticks together. These days, though, the individual sticks are now comprised of cells that are drastically different from each other. Their only hope is to be constantly reset by a trickle charger.

What has changed is:

1. Demand - when I started, I was the only person out there purchasing junkyard packs - now there are more people looking than there are packs.

2. Most of the packs on the road now are refurbished. The youngest volume car is the 2005 Civic and that is hitting 8 years. The average age is 9 years.

3. Almost no low-mileage cars are on the road to be wrecked anymore.