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Old 07-12-2009, 09:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Snorkle delete

The past 2 scions I have owned it improves fuel economy, engine sound to remove the snorkle that goes from the air filter box to the front of the car to get clean air.

Anyway, I was getting up to 55mpg on the screen my third tank and thought I would give it a test. Needless to say it went down. I got 50 on the screen 48 actual. I ran a few more tanks, same thing. Best was 50 on the screen, 48 when filling up.

So, added it back, boom after 70 miles its reading 55mpg.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Nice experiment Cobb. Useful to know and may help devise an improvement strategy.

The purpose of the snorkel is to get cool air from near the grille - especially when sitting stationary as the inside of the engine bay gets filled with really hot air that makes for poor power. Removing the snorkel also means that the air going into the box has passed through the radiators (engine and A/C) so it's pre-heated even before you consider the hot air coming off the block & manifolds.

I changed the air tubes on my Accord to get rid of a resonance restrictor valve and to pull air from the compartment in the wheel well (outside the engine bay but inside the fender) so that I always got cool outside air even when sitting in traffic. Sounded nice and pulled better off the line with a hot engine.

I'd try extending the snorkel right to the edge of the grille (but using a larger bore hose or mount a blower fan to draw cool air from the grille and blow it towards the snorkel mouth to ward off hot air from the engine bay and radiators below it leaking into the mouth. I'd also consider wrapping the snorkel in a foil insulator to reduce heat soak into the black rubber from the engine.

I'd guess that the air temperature change alone contributed to the worse MPGs as you'd be down on power from standing starts (and maybe overall due to the pre-heating of the air by the radiators even when moving) and this would lead you (or the system) to use more gas to compensate. This in turn would tend to make the CVT use higher ratios than it would do. It's probably got a throttle position software variable input that says if you're using a larger throttle angle then the CVT should expect to have to use a higher ratio than its normal goal seek target of 1,600 RPMs (or take longer to settle to that value). The air box has what looks like a MAP sensor on it so that the ECU knows the air density and will adjust fueling and timing to compensate (for high temps or high altitude, both of which make the air thinner).

You might not notice it but the small changes in system behaviour are enough to hurt your average MPGs.

Conversely, reducing the average temperature of the air might buy you more MPGs It might be worth looking at insulation or a blower to cool the air box area as when the engine auto-stops, the heat in the compartment builds up in the still air inside the box and big hoses. So when the engine does restart it gets a shot of really hot air for a few seconds and then slightly hotter than usual air for a minute or so as the flow of outside air removes the heat that had soaked into the box / hose material. In a normal car this isn't considered because the idling engine is always drawing some air through the system.
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Hot air sneaking in air intake

Watching My Scan gage II, in my I2, when driving slowly or stopped.
When that radiator fan(s) come on, those fans force hot air into the air intakes. This happens from the air spaces betwen grills intake, to the air intake horn. This is defeating Honda's reason for geting cold intake air, in the wrong seasons. So I put foam around these leaks in summer months to lesson this.

Also, the engine already warms the throttle body with coolant. Mainly to avoid icing, but it provide more warm air, more so when the theromstat is not open yet. See 5/16" pipe on front center of the engine.

As for which is best, heating or cooling:
For this small 8 valve engine, compaired to I1 12v and the Prius 16v, I would think you could keep it in the best torque range; the air not heated when you need highway power, heated when the enging load is lighter. This creates a small effect of a variable displacement engine, just like the Atkinson cycle does in all of the hybrids.

My three cents.
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:08 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks. From what I can see the snorkle seems to give a slight bit more lower end in summer or winter. I assumed having warmed air blown into the air box would help with mpg. My geo on the other hand loves hot air and a hot radiator.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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So, deleting the snorkel does not improve mpg on the I2, right?
I did disconnect it just this afternoon, hoping that it would as it does work on the I1.
Well, tomorrow I will have to make an 80 mile return trip. Typical FE on that is 22 km/l, that would be 53 mpg. So we'll see. Two runs @ 10C 50F without snorkel coming up, with lowered expectations now.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It works on shorter trips, hurts on longer. 10 miles is the border for short vs long trip with a grill block. Seems the warmer intake air causes the car to retard the timing. Warm humid air, thats another story.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Yeah, that's pretty much what i'd expect. The efficiency must be temperature related with a sweet spot way below max coolant temperature. Running for a prolonged time with a grill block and no snorkel will hurt.
So, what temperature would be optimal for the air intake?

I plan on building a small box with a fan to replace the snorkel. A mesh at the front lets in warm air from the radiator. A flap in the back of the mesh operates as a valve. On the top of the box I'd put a small fan hooked up to a temperature-induced power regulator to blow cool air in. Also I'd add a tilt switch (if I cannot find a way to hook it up to the accelerator) to make the fan work at full blast when accelerating or climbing. Next, find a big fat 80s Turbo badge...

But before doing so I'd like to find out whether that would work at all.

Btw. I do not have the grill block yet; I painted the insulation tubes black to make them less visible but the paint won't hurry drying.
For the experiment it is ideal not to have them yet. I will put the snorkel back on with the grill block
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Well below max coolant temp. Once it gets over 100 degrees it really subtracts timing. I guess 50-60 degrees is best over all for mpg vs performance. Too cool and your mpg suffers. Ive seen 115-136 degrees once warmmed up and an hour into a commute.

My idea was to go with a hood scoop and some plumbing to get cooler air where the air intake is. Id need to measure the cfm of the intake to see if a fan or blower would be of any help. I know the old ford fx had what looks like a 12 volt fan aimed at the carburator to aid in something. Maybe prevent vapor lock? The idea of an electric supercharger or turbo sounds neat and many small fans/blowers can deliver some cfms with minimal power consumption.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Just back from a 2*40 mile return trip@10C / 50F / 55 mph on highway, strong sidewind.
FC was 4.5 l/100 km trip (4.7 real); that would be 52 mpg.
That is slightly better than my average but slightly worse than my best ever trip, which was on that same route though warmer and with less wind but also serious traffic.
Considering the strong sidewind I think that under these or colder circumstances and moderate driving the snorkel delete is not harmful, and possibly even beneficiary. But that is too marginally for me. I'd leave it on so there's nothing to forget to put back on when the weather gets hot again.

I will do practically the same run tomorrow with the lower grille blocked and the snorkel reinstalled, I hope conditions stay the same so it allows me to see which has more effect. For now the snorkel stays on until I can measure intake temperature.
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Last edited by RedDevil; 12-24-2012 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I block all but 3/4 of my grill year round. I use the ac in the summer and having the fans on for the ac keeps the engine at the 180 mark. Without the ac on in the summer it will go up to 204 degrees then the fans come on. In winter it hovers around 184-195.
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