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Old 03-11-2017, 05:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default S2000 Cruise Buttons Brake Regen Mod

At the 2016 Insightfest, Mudder kindly helped me rough out a circuit and I'm finally getting getting around to ordering parts to implement it. We went with an OR gate because I had mistakenly thought that the cruise sense lines were pulled low. They are in fact pulled high when a button is pressed. Thusly some changes were in order.

I have no formal background with electronics and there are a few things I'm not entirely sure about. First, here is an image of some general notes about the Rostra wiring as well as the updated circuit design I have sketched.

Edit: Updated schematic with new changes. See post #4.
High Resolution PDF


A Old v1.0 PDF
Old v1.0 Image
Questions
1: Pin 7, Vss of the NAND gate. This should be connected to ground? [Yes]

2: The logic output of the NAND gate is connected to the gate of the PFET. Should I add something like a 4.6K ohm pull down resistor so that the gate of the PFET has a ground reference when it isn't being driven high? [Yes]
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rostra Wiring Diagram Small.jpg (115.3 KB, 13 views)
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Last edited by Bull Dog; 03-12-2017 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 03-11-2017, 06:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yeah as far as I can tell from this .pdf Vss indicates negative.

I don't know about the resistor, but if you have a breadboard I'd wire all this stuff up on there to make sure it's working right, and that way you can try the resistor.
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Last edited by Natalya; 03-11-2017 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:28 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yes, always make sure gates have a hard-wired path to some signal, so that they're driven to a known state when not otherwise driven. A few years back I forgot to do this on a prototype PCB... the result was everytime I reset the microcontroller the three phase motor I was driving briefly accelerated at violent speed because the internal microcontroller pull resistors were briefly disconnected. The only downsides are slower response time (doesn't matter in your case), and energy waste when driven against the pulled logic source (doesn't matter in your case, or if it does it's less than 0.00000001 mpg performance hit). I recommend placing a pull-up to +12V, but it isn't actually necessary theoretically, since the pullup probably already exists in Rostra, too. I don't know anything about Rostra, though, so I leave that exploration to you.

I remember being VERY tired when we were working out that circuit, but based on my horrible drawing, it looks like you wanted to turn on the brake light whenever both buttons are pressed at the same time. The 1 uF caps + 1 k resitors form a lowpass filter to prevent false tripping due to system noise. It looks like you have them drawn as "1 mF" in your drawing, whereas they should be something like "1 uF" (1000x smaller). It's possible I can't read your handwriting (or you couldn't read mine).

The circuit will work as long as your Rostra assumptions are correct. Again, I know nothing about Rostra, but if it has pulldowns to ground that are driven to +12V when a button is pressed, then a NAND gate will drive high (PFET off) until both buttons are pressed, at which point it'll drive low (PFET turns on, pulling brake line to +12).

Don't leave the unused NAND inputs floating... they'll generate noise and waste power if the float between logic levels... just tie all inputs to ground and that positively defines the (unused) NAND output behavior. The only pins to leave floating will say "no connect".
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yea I wasn't reading your writing correctly. At first I thought it was 1uf but then the u's looked more like m's to me. Now fixed.

I am updating the original post with a new schematic.

S2000 Cruise Buttons Brake Regen Mod Version 1.1 Change Log:
TI CD4012BE NAND Gate
  • VSS connected to ground. Also grounded E, F, G, and H inputs.
  • Removed constant +12V signal to inputs C & D
  • Connected the Yellow sense line to input B in addition to A.
  • Similarly moved the green sense line to inputs C & D.
  • Updated logic table to reflect changes.
Misc
  • Added 10k ohm pulldown resistors to the cruise sense lines as well as to the output of the NAND gate
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Old 03-12-2017, 07:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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One other problem that I am trying to solve is the ground sense for the Rostra Cruise unit.
Edit: Updated diagram

On my 2006 Insight I used a SPDT Relay and wired it as shown above for LEDs. During the 2016 Insightfest, I remember being told that I could use a FET instead of the relay.

I could keep it as is, but I would like to switch to something solid state. I need something that is normally closed, but will open when the brake circuit is energized.

According to my research online it looks like I would need a Depletion Mode N-Channel MOSFET.
Something like this, or maybe this. Both of which are a bit pricy.

Is this right? Is there a better way of doing what I'm after?
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Last edited by Bull Dog; 03-13-2017 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 03-13-2017, 12:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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This relay is going to give you massive problems.

At least, I had massive problems when trying to put a relay on my brake switch. My brake switch is on the steering wheel, you pull the switch and the brake lights come on. I also have a calpod clutch switch, I wanted to use a relay to deactivate the clutch switch when pulling the brake switch so I would get regen.

What ended up happening was the relay took too much power to operate the coil and the brake lights wouldn't illuminate and I didn't get regen. I know you have LED brake lights, maybe the lower current draw will allow things to work out? I was attempting to use this relay but maybe there's a relay that uses less power to operate the coil?

However, I do want to point out, that for some reason my brake switch, when it lit up the brake lights, they didn't light up as brightly as if I pressed the brake pedal, so maybe there's something else going on that I don't quite understand? Maybe the wires I used had resistance or something?
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm an idiot and forgot to mention that I'm using LED brake lights. I will draw up a complete diagram here in a little bit.

Edit updated wiring diagram in post #5
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Last edited by Bull Dog; 03-13-2017 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thank you for your help Mudder!
It works! Muahahaha
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi Bull Dog. I was posting this when your YouTube update came in. What a great mod. When you mention S2000, is it correct to assume you're using a S2000 steering wheel with integrated cruise control switches? Is it a two, three, or four-button switch? I'm confused about your controls because your Mod 1.1 top pic shows a two button cc, and the bottom shows a 4 button cc. What buttons are you using, steering wheel or Rostra- supplied. Thanks
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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A stock Rostra switch assembly has On, Off, Set and Resume all on a single stalk, however I am not using stock Rostra switchgear. Instead I will be using a separate toggle switch for the On/Off function. For Set/Decel and Resume/Accel functions I'm using steering wheel mounted S2000 switchgear.

You don't even need a S2000 wheel to do this. I am working on putting together a post in my Adventures with Bird, my 2005 Insight thread that will detail how this is done.

On a final note, with Honda Cruise Buttons from this era, the Cancel button does the same thing as pressing both Set and Resume buttons at once.
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