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Adventures with Bird, my 2005 Insight

17K views 96 replies 18 participants last post by  jeffffej 
#1 · (Edited)
I purchased a second Insight in January 2017. It is a 2005 5MT and had approximately 118,500 miles on it when I purchased it. The body is in excellent condition and has few blemishes.

The name comes from the previous owner who told me that he and his wife had named the car, "Bird." A 'shortening' of Hybrid if you will.

Anyhow I have begun making some improvements and modifications to the vehicle. In the spirit of sharing, I am (and will be) documenting these developments in future posts.

Marshall, TX, on my way home back to Idaho.

After braving white-knuckle, near-whiteout snow conditions along I-80 in Wyoming , we finally made it home.
 

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#3 ·
First order of business are some new springs. Hit a good bump with the stock springs and there is a good chance you will hit the bump stops.

It sounds harsh and unpleasant from inside the cabin and is bad for handling. I purchased a set of front and rear springs from Scott, KLR3CYL.

I did the rear springs first because they were easy.





Scott also has a video that details how to replace the rear springs on a 2000-2006 Insight​
 

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#4 ·
Replacing the front springs is considerably more involved.

Both strut assemblies needs to be removed from the vehicle.
This means that all the stuff connected to the struts needs to be disconnected first.
  • Tie rod ends (Requires non-destructive tie rod puller)
  • Sway bar link
  • Brake line tie down
  • ABS sensor tie down (I strongly recommend also removing the sensor from the knuckle so you can move it and its wire completely out of the way.
Before unbolting the strut from the knuckle, and then strut tower, I supported the knuckle with rubber tarp straps (think stiffer bungee cords). This was to prevent the knuckle from flopping away from the car and pulling the axle's CV joint apart...a very real danger that can be easily mitigated with some care.

Then, I paid a local mechanic to do the spring swapping for me as messing with springs under tension is out of my comfort zone.

After torqueing everything back down, don't forget to replace the cotter pin in the tie rod ends....like I did before I took this picture.
 

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#5 · (Edited)
Rosta cruise overhaul

Next up is some TLC for the Rosta Cruise Control until that came installed with the car.

This is how it looked on purchase. Unfortunately, there were some problems with the way the cruise control unit had been installed.

  • The mounting location using the stock bracket like this is not ideal. The unit is too close to the 12V battery.
  • Having the unit too close to the battery leads to issues routing the cruise throttle cable. See the next picture and refer to points #1 and #2.
What we are looking at here is a close up of two parts of the Rostra cruise throttle cable.

#1: Significant chunks of the housing have worn away where is was rubbing against the support brace
#2: Vibrations from the engine would induce cable housing to collide with the engine cover. The black plastic and metal stiffening weave has been completely worn through. Only the inner red liner remained to protect the cable inside.


The solution is to replace the damaged cable (Rostra# 250-3607) and then relocate the cruise box using a bracket like the one I made for my 2006 Insight.

And now it looks like this. Much better. Next post details cable routing.
 

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#7 ·
Antenna detour

The rubber around the base of the stock antenna was getting pretty crusty, so I replaced it with an antenna from a Honda Fit. Retail from the a dealer is only $6.15 and it can be found for less than $5 from online sources like Majestic Honda or G1 Parts.




The fit is excellent. It looks OEM...which I suppose it is. Unfortunately radio reception seems to be a tiny bit worse. More noticeable on the AM band than FM.
 

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#8 ·
Nice work!

Let me know how well the cruise control works, and its behavior in being able to maintain lean burn. I'm pondering installing one on my car. My HCH1 has cruise control, and I use it a lot.

Also if you don't mind posting a photo of how the cruise control buttons are installed/arranged in the cabin.

TIA!
 
#10 ·
The cruise control's response rate is adjustable. I have mine set to slow, which keeps my car in lean burn pretty well even with some mild inclines, but the moment there's much elevation change I really have to baby-sit it.
Yes, the Rostra unit has four "Gain" or (Sensitivity to speed changes) modes. Extra Low, Low, Mid and High I have tried all of them and in my personal experience, the best and only mode worth using is the High Gain setting.

At some point I intend to make a lengthy post or a video explaining why I firmly believe this is the case. However, for anyone who has used the cruise control on a Gen1 HCH 5MT, I can explain it like this:

I also own a 5 Speed HCH1 and the cruise control on it works really well, sometimes even better than manual throttle control. Of any gain setting, "High," makes the Rostra cruise behave closest to the excellent HCH1 cruise. On high, the Rostra unit will make small, near immediate, fine grain adjustments, to changes in speed...just like the HCH1 does.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Lean burn is one of the biggest reasons I advocate setting the Rostra to high gain.

At the same percent throttle opening, the engine makes more power when not in lean burn. Thus, if you are cruising along in 5th gear at steady 65 MPH in lean burn and a NOX purge happens, you will start to speed up.

With the Rostra unit set to high gain, it will quickly pull the throttle back a tiny bit to keep your speed in check. When NOX purge ends, it will see your speed dropping and quickly reapply that small adjustment in throttle to compensate. Lean burn will continue unbroken.

Especially on Extra Low, and Low settings, I've seen my Rostra unit fail to react to a NOX purge until the car has gained +2-3 MPH over the set point until it finally reacts. Then the cruise controls then responds by closing the throttle more than it would on High...right about as the car transitions back into lean burn.

So now the car starts losing speed and the cruise will only start respond once car has dropped -3-5 MPH below the set point. Once it does respond, it responds by applying so much throttle you get pulled out of lean burn.

And lets be clear here, High gain isn't perfect. It can't predict the future or see the road ahead, but at least it reacts to the present moment in a timely fashion.

TLDR: In general, at the High gain setting, the Rostra makes small adjustments to the throttle. Lean burn is easier to maintain as a result. Lower gain settings, frequently result in a sluggish response that often results in big adjustments to throttle position, killing lean burn.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I concur with your observations with the Rostra cruise control gain setting at the two minimum settings. I've tried the two lower settings only. I'd set my unit's dip switches #1 & #2 to the 'OFF' position for minimum throttle gain. I'll reset 1&2 dip switches 'ON' to give Full Gain at try hopefully with better results, mostly on account of that fluctuating road speed noted.

[fwiw: The cruise control got little use after the first year of installation, even on now rare highway trips. Best FCD economy was attained manually with the right side of the right foot held steady planted against the transmission tunnel in an effort trying to maintain TPS less than '33' reading off the OBDIIC&C iirc. [Didn't go to resorts of using a strip of velcro attached to the sneakers to ease strain of maintaining the foot position but considered it.]]

My rationale for the setting of a weak gain for the throttle response, [counter to the suggestions of vendor Brandon Distributors vendors staff member Joe, a real good guy] , was that a lower 'deltaTPS' ['rate of change' of throttle position] would help to try and keep lean burn 'in' for longer duration. The results are though are as you say.
_______
The way I ran with Rostra to save the IMA, was to turn 'Off' IMA assist via a Mima button, or generally risk flattening the IMA in short order. This was the case especially in running through gusty weather conditions, or over rolling hills.
With any traffic following closely, with the occurrence of the purge cycle and speed fluctuations it could be unsafe. When cruise control was employed, most use was over long distances on secondary rural highways with little traffic normally.
____________________
[Last I checked the vendor site a while back, [BD out of business: 11.16 sued by ROSTRA] they had a new unit for cruise control [non-Rostra] that has a _variable gain control knob_ [vs. 2 dip switches], on a box inside the vehicle to set a sweet spot for gain. I'd give strong consideration to such a newer unit if installing anew.]
 
#14 ·
I don't know how my Rostra is set, but it does kill lean burn. It tries to accelerate at the slightest grade and that's the end of it. CC wants to maintain constant speed, while lean burn wants constant throttle. I mainly use it only on very flat sections so I can wiggle my ankle. Or when I'm driving too fast for lean burn and have already given up on hypermiling. It's a great tool, but its thought process is counteractive to getting the best mileage.

Sam
 
#16 ·
That's a bit discouraging. I wonder if anyone has created a simple hack to just keep throttle open at wherever your foot is when you push the button. Sounds like something like that would work better for Insight.
 
#15 ·
Thanks for the explanations.

How much is/was the Rasta cruise control system? It sounds like they've gone out of business now, and you'd have to obtain it via used market or just buying an insight with it already installed?
 
#17 ·
#18 · (Edited)
Ah OK, I thought about that, needing disengage switch on brake pedal.

I think there are a couple of "built-in" safety measures.

1. When driving for mileage, you tend to be the slowest person on freeway, and there's always increasing distance between you and the person in front of you. So should have plenty of time to disengage.

2. In a true emergency, you hit the brake hard enough the car will stall. You might flood engine with gas though.

But yeah, would be way better to have brake disengage trigger.

OMG see a mod in that thread using bicycle gear shifter for mechanically keeping throttle open. Cool and crazy at the same time...
 
#19 ·
Sorry for the hijack of your thread, BullDog. This was supposed to be about YOUR car. OPs, if you want to talk about cruise control please start a different thread.

Sam
 
#22 · (Edited)
Steering wheel Modifications

The Insight's steering wheel frame is mechanically identical that of the S2000.

I thought about buying another S2000 wheel for Bird, but I couldn't find any I liked on Ebay at a reasonable price. Plus, the steering wheel on this car is in really nice shape. No visible deterioration from the sun at all.

Here are the parts I purchased to upgrade the steering wheel

78525-S2A-A81 The Cord Guide that also secures the gray cruise button plug.
78517-S2A-A81 The Bracket that the buttons mount to.
93892-05016-08 Screws to hold the bracket to the steering wheel.
90171-SK7-003 Screws to hold the cruise buttons to the bracket.

Optional:
78518-S2A-A81ZA You can spend an extra $10 and buy a wheel cover that already has a hole for the cruise buttons. Or you can cut your current cover one like I did.
36770-S6M-A01ZA Brand new, AP2 S2000 cruise buttons. For half the cost, I was able to find a button assembly on Ebay that was in excellent condition.

Lets get started.


The first step is to remove the horn plate. It is held down by three bolts with a 5mm hex head. After that remove four Philips head screws that secure the wheel cover to the frame. Two of the Philips screws are obscured by the horn plate.


(Note: I didn't take enough pictures at the time of modification, so I've used the original steering wheel from my 2006 to model here.) This is the area of the cover that we will be cutting a hole into. The mold line visible here is NOT where you want to cut.


Instead, on the inside of the cover there is a faint mold line. That is the shape you will want to cut out. Click here to view the same with a fairly clumsy polygonal line drawn around mold mark.
 

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#23 · (Edited)
However, instead of trying to make out that faint line, I cheated and pulled the S2000 wheel from my 2006 Insight and used that cover as a guide.


After I shot this, I cleaned up, lightly sanded the edges of the cut to make it look pretty, and forgot to take another picture.



With the hole in the cover finished, I reassembled the wheel, adding in the extra parts as I went.



The next task is to modify this AP2 S2000 clock spring I purchased on Ebay.

I copied what I did almost two years ago for my 2006 Insight. Having the documentation on hand worked out splendidly.

Terminology Note: The S2000 was sold by Honda from 2000 to 2009. In 2004, Honda did a significant refresh of the S2000. For our purposes there are three changes of note.

  1. The revision number was incremented from AP1 to AP2
  2. A third, Cancel, button was added to the steering wheel mounted cruise control button assembly.
  3. Honda switched to using a new clock spring. As near as I can tell, it is functionally the same as the old one.

The Insight which also received a mid-life refresh in 2004, started using an updated clock spring assembly as well. Minus the extra three wires for the cruise control, it is same as one from an AP2 S2000. Both share a six conductor ribbon inside.
spacer text
 

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#24 ·
Nice fluke! (Or is that a clone?) My friend has what looks to me like identical model, but decades old and gritty. Still working great. He says his dad paid like $400 for it and gave it to him at some point.
 
#25 ·
esprout,

Please quit hijacking this thread and changing the topic it's not about how cruise control works in lean burn and today it's not about Fluke brand meters.

Please think before you post and start a new thread or find one that is all ready on topic, I bet there are more than 20 threads about Rostra Criuse Control, and they are still in business.

Scott
 
#27 · (Edited)
only thing that has me scratching my head is, why would you buy a second Insight and get the same color?
Because the car is in great shape and the price was right.



Next, I constructed a wire harness to run down the steering column. The end with the black molex plug will connect to the clock spring and the other end will plug into my logic board.
  • The blue wire is currently unused. To utilize it, a wire would need to be added to the empty sport (pictured below) in the front of the clockspring.


  • On the clock spring, the brown horn wire and the grey wire share the same conductor internally.


  • The orange wire from my harness plugs into the spade fitting I have already crimped to the orange horn relay wire coming from the OEM harness.

I'm going to have to think of a use for the blue wire...
 

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#28 · (Edited)

The S2000 Cruise Buttons Brake Regen Mod pcb is almost complete. I'm awaiting a delivery of a relay from Digikey and then after a bit more work it'll be done. The plan is to incorporate the ability to use LED brake lights.

Hopefully, my soldering doesn't give too many 'experts' waking nightmares. Sometimes you have to do the best you can with the tools you have.


Connections that are bridged, are bridged intentionally.
 

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#31 ·
Yes. Posting at midnight is bad for my coherency. I have edited my above post to reference specifically what the PCB is for.

Bull Dog, thanks for the great pictorial documentation you are providing. The pictures of the clockspring look like the original Gen1 but you say you're making modifications to the S2000? Apparently the S2000 attaches properly?
I'm glad you are finding it informative! Yes, Insight and S2000 clocksprings are physically interchangeable. The only real difference is that 5MT Insight ones don't have factory installed wiring for steering wheel mounted buttons.

Please consider this (now annotated) picture from a couple of years ago when I was working on my 2006 Insight.



Insights with CVT transmissions will already have a clock spring like the one on the right. The extra wires are used for the S(port) and D(drive) buttons.
 

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#32 ·
thanks for the clarification of the clocksprings and especially your pics; I hate to plow ground twice. Now I'm unclear about your schematic because your breadboard has lots of components that don't appear on it. Could you make a BOM and a more comprehensive schematic.
 
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