Making an EV Mode Ideas

[IamIan]

Tieing into the exsistign Hybrid system will be difficult for many reasons and the engine will always produce drag unless it is helping to push the car.

A wheel motor will increase the unsprung weight of the car and all those issues.

So if the engine is in neutral. The Idea is to have a 5th wheel drop down in the back around where the spare tire is. The 5th wheel can be retracted to prevent drag at highway speeds, and then lowered at lower speeds to provide a limited EV mode.

Concidering the weight of the Insight a 10 to 20 HP / kW Electric motor should be enough for a limited EV mode.

There is a company in Fl that sells electric pocket bikes.

http://www.suncoast.net/pocket_bikes.php

They have some different options but the electric pocket bikes should be enough power for a limited EV mode on an insight.... 8HP continuous or up to ~15HP / 18kW peak.

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48 Volt Racing Cyclone Product Specs:
Speed: 55 MPH Range: 15 Miles Voltage: 48 V
Batteries: 12V 14Ah Battery Type: High Power Lead-Acid
Charge Time: 4-6 Hours Charger: 48V 8A (Included)
Motor: 15HP Peak, 8HP Continuous Drive: Direct Chain
Throttle: Variable Speed Control Brakes: Front & Rear Disc
Weight Limit: 250 Lbs Wheel Size: 8" Aluminum Alloy
Tires: Front 90/65-8, Rear 130/50-8 Color: Blue and Black
Price: $2,695.00 * Custom options available.
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We won't neccessarily need the whole pocket bike... but the motor is the right size... The control system is already there... The Batteries are already there for 10~15 Miles Range.... etc...etc.... I haven't priced it out exactly but buying the parts all seperatly I suspect will be in the $2,000+ Price range anyway.

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FYI ... Mike ( The Man Behind MIMA )... Is the one who I think first came up with this idea... He had pointed out several probelms with some of the other ideas I had for a EV Mode....

Also Mike is already buisy working on another very useful project... He is doing tests on Grid Charging / a booster battery pack for the insight the goal of that project is to give extra power to the insight battery pack... that would allow for more / extended use of MIMA.
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The other great thing here... is the FAS project also being worked on will allow us to force the engine to Auto Stop when in neutral for the EV Mode.

I wanted to move this topic to here to prevent it from being off topic in other threads.

If I am missing anything important please let me know.... Or if you have any thoughts of your own please feel free to add them too.

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

IamIan
That looks like the right size motor, but is it capable of regenerative braking?
I think that regen would almost be a necessisity to get the maximum range.
While out there playing with the booster pack, I jumped in my pit, and took another look under there.
I wonder if we could do a retractable friction drive to one of the rear wheels, to avoid the cutting of the spare tire compartment. It may not be much more inefficient than putting the drive wheel on the road, and may be possible to tuck it in the rear wheel well.
It will ne nice again tomorrow, so I will get back under there, and take some measurements. The pocket bike rear arm would definately look cool dropping down from under the rear bumper.
Mike

[b1shmu63]

Well you'd certainly know the car's gender.

[IamIan]

The EV pocket Bike is unfortunely not capacble of regenerative braking.

It is a DC 48V 400 Amp peek 100 Amp continuous setup Uses disc brakes.

To try to get regenerative braking we would need at the very least a different controller.

I know it can be done but I have not seen more than a handfull of DC motor Controlers that allow for regenerative braking. They are almost always AC motor Controlers being used for regenerative braking. Something about it must cause problems or something.

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I figured on useing the Insights Regenerative braking for the EV mode add on.

If more range was desired then a bettery battery chemistry could be used or more batteries...

Or I know that the accessory system will give you 12V 20A. I have used a small 200W electric heater sometimes, as it is warm air in seconds on those bitter cold mornings.... I also noticed that when pulling power like this from the accessory unit the forced regen seems to want to stay on not only to warm up the battery pack but to top it off too.

Now 200W would not be regenerating power to the EV mode very quickly at all... but I figure The Lead Acid Batteries it comes with give the bike a ~15 mile range... should be able to give the insight ~10 Minutes of EV mode... Which should be enough for low speed pull out or with FAS to keep the engine in Auto Stop it could be used to crest some hills.... Adding more range is just a matter then of adding more or better batteries.

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If we can do a add on to one of the rear wheels I still like that idea.

I know it will have problems though as mike has pointed out before.

The nice thing about adding drive mechanism somehow to the rear wheel instead of the drop down wheel is that it should save more weight I would think.

I think thier are problems either way.

I will see what I can find for Wheel motors... If others see a godo way to turn the rear wheels in another way please let us know.

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

The parts we need are a 10-15KW 48V motor, and regenerative controller. I will build the rest.
A BDC like the IMA motor would be the most efficient. Someone must sell a system like that.

[Kevin Dougherty]

Is this what you're looking for Mike?

http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/products/scooters.html

May I also suggest

http://www.rasertech.com/media/pdfs/P-2_slick_X.pdf

or, for the hard to find EV stuff

http://metricmind.com/index1.htm

I think that the best compromise would be to place wheel hub motors on the rear axle. Make the whole thing a drop in unit by replacing the rear axle. The retractable idea seems inelegant.

[IamIan]

I have sent an email to :

http://www.ultramotors.co.uk

http://www.e-traction.com

http://www.wavecrestlabs.com

Just sent it out today tuesday so I figure to give them a few days to respond.

[IamIan]

Metric Mind I have not contacted.... From what I have seen of thier web site and EV conversion example they do not do the wheel electric motor thing... They do have some other motors but the smallest I have seen them carry is 9kW Continuous and the smallest peak power is 28kW.... Thier stuff looks more like the kind of thing people go for when they replace the whole engine and have a full EV. ... I didn't think we wanted / needed that much power.

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Kevin IamIan, nice links, but what would one of the systems cost?

I aggree with Kevin that anthing less than a light weight hub motor would not be the optimum solution.
Crazy Idea # ??
Lets make the motor out of the wheel
the bearings are already there, it is already connected to the car, and the wheel fits on it.

BDC motors are pretty simple devices, just a ring of magnets and a ring of coils, with some hall effect sensors to tell the system when to fire the coil.
What if we designed a bolt on system using the present wheel hub and bearing. the magnets would be on a ring that was clamped around the outer diameter of the wheel, like a big shaft collar, 2 halfs. The coil assembly would mount to the wheel support using existing holes if possible, and shims to the magnet assembly, to keep the gap uniform. Make a nice weather proof cover, and you have a light weight BDC hubmotor.
I know there are a lot of areas that would need to be worked out, the biggest being the need for a small air gap between the magnet assembly and the coil assembly, and keeping road crap out of that gap. Now there is an engineering challange.

[IamIan]

I will know better the costs when I hear back from the 3 companies I contacted.

Ideally they will cost in the same range as other 10kW to 20kW Motors...

If they are too much then I guess we are not useing a wheel motor.

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I thought the insight didn't have a rear axel? That the rear Tires were not connected to each other?