Our beautiful valvetrain, and it's limits. - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum
 
Go Back   Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum > 1st-Generation Honda Insight Forum > Modifications and Technical Issues

Please Visit our Site Sponsors Page
Insightcentral.net is the premier Honda Insight Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
» Wheel & Tire Center

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-02-2007, 12:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tacoma WA
Posts: 24
Default Our beautiful valvetrain, and it's limits.

This is my first thread here, and I want to say that I think this forum seems to have a nice group of members.

I became the owner of a 2001 Honda Insight 6 days ago. I work as a power generation engineer for Microsoft, and before this job, I worked in the racing engine part design for 7 years.

I bought the car with the intent of swapping the engine to a Honda k24a2, however, I think it would be much more a challenge to reach my power goals with the stock engine.

The stock engine is very de-tuned. Specific output (hp/L) is very low, which is to be expected for an engine that has a 6200rpm ceiling, but this doesn't explain the low specific torque (ft-lbs/L).

On an engine with so many outstanding and exotic measures taken to reduce Fmep (frictional loss), I expected to see excellent BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption). (BSFC is the measure of how much useful energy an engine creates per unit of fuel.) I was dissapointed.

I started to design a cam profile better optimized towards my needs, and I was very thrilled with the mechanical limits and properties of the valvetrain. I also measured the stock (true lift) lift at the valves.

First, some pictures of our beautiful valvetrain design. If you note the use of needle bearings in most piviots (excludeing intake rocker shaft piviot which appears to be a bushing), the use of forged aluminum exaust rockers, and other weight saving measures, you will see that no expense was spared in its construction.

Above picture.
http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album41/DSCF0601.sized.jpg
[mod edit: Removed img function. Please see the rules. Links to appropriate pics always welcome]

Picture of beautiful forged aluminum exaust rockers. Note the thin washers to retain the needles on each side of the rocker where it mounts to the shaft.
http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album41/DSCF0607.sized.jpg


This picture shows the primary rocker with its needle roller, and the vtec-e rocker cuddled up against it. The little nubbin on the upper corner of the vtec-e rocker is the houseing for the vtec pin mechanism.

http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album41/DSCF0608.sized.jpg

Here is a measurement of peak exaust valve lift. It's unreadable in the picture, but peak exaust valve lift was 0.300" (limted to +-0.01" precision of fixture)

http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album41/DSCF0606.sized.jpg

This picture shows the measureing of peak intake valve lift. The depth of field for the camera was not able to capture the dial in a readable form, but the lift was 0.322".

http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album41/DSCF0605.sized.jpg


Now, for the most important data. Unlike many engines, the peak lift is not limited by coil bind, but rather by the bottoms of the keeper tangs contacting the upper edge of the valve stem seal. This occurs at roughly 0.610" of lift. This is a massive amount of lift for an engine with such such a small valve face, much beyond the areas of diminishing returns in reguards to valve lift vs increased flow. The clearence around the lobes of the cam in the head was also generously recessed, and I see no reason why the engine can't easily handle a cam with lift pushed into the 0.500" range. I will be doing this when I purchase a spare insight engine and have the camshaft spray welded to build up the lobe enough to have adquate material to work with with out needing to reduce the base circle (which would effect ramp-rate angles in a negative way).

Also, as far as tossing in a cam with more lift and duration on the stock engine, I belive you would be loseing power. I measured stock exaust pressure at peak RPM to be 7psi in the manifold! This is as poor of an IMP to EMP ratio as I've ever measured on a non-turbo charged engine, and a factor which is certianly a large part of the low BSFC, output, and poor response.

I plan to solve this problem by carefully machining off the terrible intigrated exaust manifold cast into the head, welding up the low places, drilling and tapping holes near each of the 3 exposed ports, welding up the exposed water passages and possible oil return passages, then decking both surfaces of the head flat again (as the chamber side will be warped as well from the welding).

Once this is done, a proper 3-1 narrow long tube header with choke merge collector will be fabricated. From very rough calculations, this will give the engine more of a boost than haveing the IMA enguaged on full assist at all times, yet will require less fueling than before (BSFC improvement).

To sumarize, substantially improved economy and performance as well as performance potential for future modifications.

Best Wishes,
-Luke
liveforphysics is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-02-2007, 12:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 1,819
Default

Interesting

One point: You said "... this doesn't explain the low specific torque (ft-lbs/L)". Maybe the low torque was a deliberate design decision. After all, the engine is matched to a high-torque electric motor, and the system presumably optimized for fuel economy.

And I can't help but wonder what Microsoft is doing that requires power generation engineers...
james is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 01:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tacoma WA
Posts: 24
Default

This engine was optimized to lower friction, but many decisions were which sacrifice fuel economy in favor of a quick cat functional temperature being reached without the need for a large starting enrichment (responsible for a large part of the HC emmisions in most modern engines).

As far as why Microsoft needs power generation engineers...

These are a few of my 16 babies. They generate the power to ensure that 85,000 servers in our datacenter are not effected no matter what games the power company decides to play. These servers host sites like MSN, Hotmail, and thousands of others you may be familiar with, but this is getting far off topic now...

http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album11/P8090030.sized.jpg

http://www.ejlin.com/albums/album11/P8090021.sized.jpg


Best Wishes,
-Luke
liveforphysics is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 04:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bobs Lake, Canada
Posts: 2,332
Default

Hi Luke. Welcome to the forum. Someone else with a non digital caliper.*

Several members here have turbo charged their Insights. There are also two Drag racing Insights, a class winning Rally Insight running on E 85 in Britain, Active Insight racing members in Ontario and Callifornia, and at least one all electric Insight.

We welcome contributions to the general knowledge base. Naturally there are those here who would like to see you improve the efficiency of the engine, and others who will welcome any additional power.

I believe the integrated exhaust manifold was also to help keep our little engine from freezing its nuts....and bolts off in the winter. Stainless headers perchance?

*OK, I admit I recently caved and got 2 digitals
__________________
Kip Munro

The laws of physics don't need changing, but rather our attitude and values. 72.8 LMPG
b1shmu63 is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:09 AM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 984
Default

One thing I have wondered about is whether there is anything in the engine related to low speed operation. I frequently find myself running it at around 1000 rpm with a load, which in most other cars will hardly work at all. There's no special notice in the instructions about lugging the engine, but high-mileage driving techniques seem to encourage that sort of operation...
Dougie is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:12 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 4,943
Default Re: Our beautiful valvetrain, and it's limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liveforphysics
To sumarize, substantially improved economy and performance as well as performance potential for future modifications.
I will be interesting to follow your progress in regard to re-engineering the Insight and improving its MPG. Don't fail to take account of intake and exhaust flow dynamics and the lean-burn cycle that enables Insight hyper MPG (5 speed models only).

http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/enlaf.html

And you've got Honda at an advantage since its likely your modifications will not be able to meet emissions requirements either.
__________________
02 5spd, 130k+Miles
Web: Hot Air Intake & Gauge lights peskiness Mod
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/581466
Insightful Trekker is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:32 AM   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 35
Default

I don't think Honda put all the focus on just gas mileage and power, back in 1998 the CRX HF would get 60-65 mpg and would hold it's own against the insight on a straight line. The Insight does have a better crash rating and is 100 time cleaner.
I do believe a tuned header of some kind would help and a little more compression and lift on the high left part of the cam.
I will be interested on your progress.
K-Sight is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 4,943
Default

Hi K-Sight,

The last year for the HF was 91. I owned one and put 240K miles on it. It was good, but for whatever reasons (one was no MPG game gauge) the best I ever got was 57MPG.

Yes, other Insighters have reported better results in their old HF's. YMMV.


HTH!
__________________
02 5spd, 130k+Miles
Web: Hot Air Intake & Gauge lights peskiness Mod
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/581466
Insightful Trekker is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 02:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 35
Default

Sorry Typo, I ment 1988. The CRX HF was 1988 to 1991 only, The Civic VX was another gas sipper which went to 1992-1995.

I had a CRX HF which on the Highway I got 60+ mpg every time running around 60-65 mph. I have owned a couple of Insights, I have had as high as 82 running 55-60mph with no AC and very easy driving.
My point is , I think Honda could achieve 100mpg + but there would be sacrifces.
I love the insight and the technology is amazing, But looking at the big pictures...Gas mailege really has come a long way from 1988.
K-Sight is offline  
Old 06-02-2007, 07:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 4,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sight
The CRX HF was 1988 to 1991 only,...<snip>
Don't forget its carburated predecessor either

IIRC for 2 years prior to the 88 body style the CRX came in an HF version too. Careful driving could yield a whopping mid 40's MPG IIRC highway MPG rating was 51ish T'was a rare breed indeed. Back in the .69/g gasoline days.
__________________
02 5spd, 130k+Miles
Web: Hot Air Intake & Gauge lights peskiness Mod
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/581466
Insightful Trekker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:17 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2