Replacement cells?

[james]

I recall that before Honda announced the extended battery replacement, there was some discussion of building replacement packs, but the conclusion was that the high-capacity NiMH cells weren't available.

I was just browsing through an electronics catalog (http://www.digikey.com), and out of curiousity checked the battery section. They have Panasonic 6.5 and 8.5 Ahr cells listed, and marked as new products. Are these the same cells as used in the Insight packs, or viable replacements?

[Fred]

... Are these the same cells as used in the Insight packs, or viable replacements?

In one of the sections for Insight Central there's are several articles specifically regarding this issue and if I recall right, the "D" sized cells you refer to from Digikey are NOT viable replacement parts due to a specific fixture/fitting at the positive end of the cells. The "D" cells in the Insight (one hundred and fifty seven of them I believe it is) have a fitting on the end - unique to the Insight. Look around Insight Central's old posts, it shouldn't take too long to find the article I'm talking about.

Hope this helps

Fred / Proud Owner of "The Silver Bullet"

[HafNHaf]

120 cells, but who's counting...

[jgessling]

Someone is making refurbished packs for Honda for warranty repairs. By refurbished, I understood same frame etc, new cells. So somebody is getting new cells and knows how to assemble them into a like new pack.

If only we could find out who and how this is happening. I think several of us would pay to have it done when it becomes necessary.

I had my first pack replaced an 157k miles, figure next one at 314k? But really more because new control modules are supposed to manage batteries better. I just can't bear the fact that my baby might become not repariable.

Regards, Jim
'01 #191

[Dougie]

Part of the problem is the lack of a solid understanding of the cost of a replacement battery from Honda. There are 120 cells, so if they cost $10 each that's $1200 just for the parts. Is it reasonable to expect that a lower cost will be achievable?

[Fred]

120 cells, but who's counting... :D

Have no idea where one hundred and fifty seven came from! One hundred twenty sounds right now that you mentioned it but what still amazes me is that they are essentially, standard "D" size cells. Until I read that article here in Insight Central (can't remember where I found it at the moment) some how I thought the cells would be small, square or oblong shaped units - but "D" cells? It would never have occurred to me, to use "D" cells in that manner.

Fred / Proud Owner of "The Silver Bullet"

[joecvt]

Originally Posted by jgessling

Someone is making refurbished packs for Honda for warranty repairs. By refurbished, I understood same frame etc, new cells. So somebody is getting new cells and knows how to assemble them into a like new pack.

If only we could find out who and how this is happening. I think several of us would pay to have it done when it becomes necessary.

They may have an exclusive contract to only provide refurbished packs to Honda.... But perhaps worth checking into anyway..

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner

[jgessling]

The history of NMh cells is pretty convoluted and there is a lot of conspiracy theories around. As I understand it the patents generated by Ovionics when making batteries for the EV1 were sold to Texaco and subsequently Chevron bought Texaco and the patents. In protecting those patents, Chevron's spin off Cobasys prevented panasonic ( and others ) from making cells bigger than "D" cells.

So Honda had no choice but to string together "D" cells. If you search around the internet you can read more details.

Jim
'01 #191

[james]

"In one of the sections for Insight Central there's are several articles specifically regarding this issue and if I recall right, the "D" sized cells you refer to from Digikey are NOT viable replacement parts due to a specific fixture/fitting at the positive end of the cells."

I remember those posts, though they didn't pop up on a quick search (or if they did, they were lost in clutter). If I remember, though, the real problem was the capacity and/or current handling. Fittings can be machined or adapted, if need be, but changing battery chemistry is just a little beyond my ability

I had thought that one reason this kind of cell wasn't on the market at the time was that Honda & Toyota were buying all the manufacturer could produce. So I figured that if they've managed to ramp up production since then, they might be offering them commercially now.

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

James,
All of the "Standard"NIMH I have seen on the market have either tab or regular compression (like regular D cells) terminations which cannot handle the 100A the car requires under full assist.
I have some photos of the cells and terminations here:
http://www.99mpg.com/Resources/articles ... cksexpose/
and some data that we took when examining the subpacks balance here.
http://www.99mpg.com/workshops/mikessaturdayhybri/
May want to try a pack balancing like we did on the Silver Insight pack which was very bad on initial test, and still is balanced to within 0.004V after 500 miles and a 2 week sit on my bench.
The Triton smart charger worked great for the conditioning.
http://www.electrifly.com/chargers/gpmm3153.html
The idea is to fully cycle each subpack to erase any memory or imbalance that may have developed. The Prius BCM actually does this based on their battery management patent, but there is no evidence that the Honda Hybrids have a similar procedure.
The pack life will likely not be reduced by a measurable amount buy a full cycle or two, and so far this has brought back a couple of pretty bad battery packs.
I do not have any data as to how long the re balancing will last.
If your pack is bad enough to consider rebuilding, you may want to try this first. The charger is about $125, and your results will add to the data.