This is the reason of why I haven't done it, the exactly reasons you've just said. I don't want the voltage next to me attached to a piece of plastic with wires connected with a friction fit. I didn't know that there was development of a nice way to monitor this, thanks for letting me know.
I've known the instrument panel is misleading, especially after seeing how the SOC gauge behaves, I can get the same amount of regen into the pack going from 10 to 18 bars as I will putting 18 to 20 bars, which is enough to convince anyone that it isn't an accurate representation of power but probably more of a tool for the car to try to get you to do what it wants you to do, if even that.
This is the reason of why I haven't done it, the exactly reasons you've just said. I don't want the voltage next to me attached to a piece of plastic with wires connected with a friction fit. I didn't know that there was development of a nice way to monitor this, thanks for letting me know.
.
I am always amazed at the fear that people exhibit about these batteries, yet they think NOTHING of their wives using a hair dryer with even more voltage connected to it with two small plastic wires, or using a soldering gun with even more voltage connected to it through two plastic covered wires. They will sit down comfortably in an easy chair with a lamp alongside with almost TWICE the voltage potential of the Insight battery.
The voltage on a hair dryer cord or a soldering iron is +169 volts to -169 volts (120 x 1.41). That is a difference of over 300 volts!!!!! Thats a lot more than the 0 volts to 178 volts of the battery system of these cars.
Its all a matter of respect. You dont stick hairpins in the wall socket, and you similarly dont treat the Honda battery with disrespect.
BUT it is safe if you treat it with the same respect you do your hair dryer.
__________________
Jim Isbell
2000, 5 speed, 250,000 miles
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."
Mike, I'm interested in doing this but am wary about running pack wiring to the cabin, if I put a .5amp fuse in line with wires going up to the drivers seat area, would this cause any voltage drop without load through the wiring?...
MN Driver,
Just use a voltage divider to lower the voltage to something you're more comfortable with.
I made a patch cord with a 10:1 voltage divider and the voltmeter reads 16.8 volts instead of 168 volts for example.
The test can be done in 20 seconds, just hook the voltmeter to the battery terminals, and do the test, no need to run wires.
I have the whole pack voltage, and the ten subpacks run to a rotary switch and then a dvm http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...ymonitorsw.pdf
The 600 ohm resistors are actually self reseting fuses. so except for the shock hazard, which still exist, the cable is protected.
Jim is correct, a voltage divider can act as a current limiter as well.
A 100:1 voltage divider is what I use in the dual rate charger. http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...d_charger1.pdf
This limits max current to a safe 2 ma or less.
I am always amazed at the fear that people exhibit about these batteries, yet they think NOTHING of their wives using a hair dryer with even more voltage connected to it with two small plastic wires, or using a soldering gun with even more voltage connected to it through two plastic covered wires. They will sit down comfortably in an easy chair with a lamp alongside with almost TWICE the voltage potential of the Insight battery.
The voltage on a hair dryer cord or a soldering iron is +169 volts to -169 volts (120 x 1.41). That is a difference of over 300 volts!!!!! Thats a lot more than the 0 volts to 178 volts of the battery system of these cars.
Its all a matter of respect. You dont stick hairpins in the wall socket, and you similarly dont treat the Honda battery with disrespect.
BUT it is safe if you treat it with the same respect you do your hair dryer.
Well, not quite, it is very different than you just described. I'll try to explain.
1. The voltages aren't cumulative the voltage peak of an AC sine wave is one way and then the other, not both, unless you are holding both legs of a split-phase system, then you would get twice the voltage. The Insight pack peaks over 175 volts under regen and is at 175 volts or so just under a 350mA grid-charge.
2. About this part: "Its all a matter of respect. You dont stick hairpins in the wall socket, and you similarly dont treat the Honda battery with disrespect. BUT it is safe if you treat it with the same respect you do your hair dryer."
I disagree, in a house the wires aren't subjected to constant vibration and impacts that jostle around with every impact and bump, a house doesn't deal with rapid temperature changes and also deal with temperature possibilities as low as -40c and 140(or more) during all of this abuse. Every connection is a new possible point of failure, every time you bend a wire you are closer to something coming apart. Yes, you can make it relatively safe but I've seen people put together electric cars with high voltage wires running every which way in a spaghetti fashion. I don't want that voltage next to me connected to a multimeter that might get knocked off the dash or have its wires slip out. It's about the most crude setup that I can possibly think of to have full voltage coming to the cabin sitting right next to me in a setup that isn't even hardwired.
I like the voltage divider idea, am interested in Peters plan too, and there are plenty of better ways to do it than pack voltage directly to a multimeter in proximity to the driver and passenger. It's not the fear of the batteries, but the fear of high voltage and high amperage connections that will burn your car to the ground if you don't think carefully before connecting things up. For example, I see many people use soldered connections to wires in a car environment and each of those soldered connections mixes a solid point right next to a flexible one and every twitch is like bending a pop can tab a little bit, sooner or later it breaks. Obviously we have better ways to make connections but there are tons of people making those mistakes with just 12volts and burning their car to the ground. A bigger hazard than the voltage and amperage itself is heat, it can burn you and your car. I don't mind being electrocuted, in fact it has happened before, I just don't want to be burned, electrical burns can be downright wicked.
Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm not trying to be extreme about it but I wouldn't speak too casually about electrical connections, a bad connection in my house will have a similar result, a bad ground and I can zap myself, a loose wire can create heat and start a fire too. I don't fear my houses electricity because we have UL listed components installed to code, if I went willy nilly about the place and installed electrical outlets in my house without knowing the basics, I could very likely cause a serious problem.
I wasn't trying to act that way, but I see that I wrote it that way, sorry.
I just don't like the 'you have nothing to fear' sort of implication considering that there could be an inexperienced person here, since it is the internet after all(everyone has the potential to be here), who might not know what we know regarding electrical safety and just toss in a multimeter strapped to something on their dash with a zip tie because they got the idea to do it on a forum. Again, I didn't mean to come across like that.
I fully understand where you are coming from and accept the apology.
But I, similarly to your dislike for the laissez-fair attitude, I dislike the fear mongering that often goes on unintentionally. As someone that has spent most of my 73 years working with voltages that make this seem like playing in a sand box, I hate to see people scared off from getting involved with their cars and electronics because of an unreasoned fear.
And there lies the crux of the matter, "Un-Reasoned".
As I stated, reasonable respect...and perhaps as you alluded to, knowledge...should make these cars perfectly safe for anyone to work on.
I worked with 25,000 volts without fear but I used all the proper precautions. High voltage is not magic, nor is it a beast just thinking how its going to get you. I have seen people afraid to pick up a loose resistor that was labeled HV for fear of getting electrocuted. I also know people that wont swim in salt water because they fear sharks. Both are un-reasoned fears.
__________________
Jim Isbell
2000, 5 speed, 250,000 miles
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."
I am kind of in between both of your opinions. I have spent a lifetime working with electronics. I serviced color TVs back when they used vacuum tubes, and CRT's operating at 25KV and was in the business when the first transistor TV's came out.
I have some funny stories about getting zapped with 280VDC, and almost going out a three story window, and the time I was swapping a picture tube and a 25KV spark shot out and hit me in the belly.
Experience (getting the S**t knocked out or you and living to tell about it) is the best teacher of respect for electricity. Once you get that experience/respect, you will always respect it from then on.
The problem with experience is that not everyone has it, and when we say on an open forum that giving proper respect will make the HV battery safe, not everyone understands what that means.
When we give our hybrid class, one of the first things we do is to let the guys get a controlled shock by putting a hand crank AC generator, me, and the guy in a series circuit.
This tends to show what electricity feels like without getting blown across the room.
We call it getting introduced to electricity by shaking hands with it.
The standard procedure for working on Hybrid battery packs is to wear HV linemen gloves with leather outers. This goes for experienced technicians as well as new guys.
Toyota does not allow technicians to open the HV pack unless they have had special training.
The dealers service department is supposed to have a pair of certified linemen gloves, and an insulated pull pole (to yank a guy that is frying off the pack).
The batteries are nothing to fool with, and will kill you faster than you can say ouch!
On the other hand, the main HV switch really does make the pack safe to handle, and the PTC resistors on each tap prevent high currents. I could still get a good shock from my battery monitor as the resistors will not limit the current to a point where It would protect me, but my wiring is with 600V rated multiconductor wire, my connections are with a male female adapter that plugs right into the BCM voltage tap connector, and my rotary switch and meter are mounted in a plastic housing, so I feel pretty safe.
We all need to respect the battery pack and grid charger like we would respect the wiring in our electrical box, and have no business playing with either unless we thoroughly understand ohms law and basic electronics.
The problem with HV is that the first time you get sloppy, it could be your last.
A word to the wise should be sufficient.
If you are unwise, god bless you, and we will see you on the other side.
I have some funny stories about getting zapped with 280VDC, and almost going out a three story window, and the time I was swapping a picture tube and a 25KV spark shot out and hit me in the belly.
I caught the spark on the end of my nose while trying to read a label on the CRT...... It threw me across the room as the reflex action of my leg mussels was to kick. No damage except to my pride as I was in front of my instructor.
__________________
Jim Isbell
2000, 5 speed, 250,000 miles
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."
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