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Old 04-01-2008, 11:29 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Phev Insight

I know there's lot's of discussions about EV Insights and various battery mods/upgrades on the site but I wanted to start a new thread for two reasons.

1) After much thought I'm going to go with an upgraded Li-ion 50 ah battery pack in my Insight to make a phev and not a full electric at this stage. I can save money by converting one of my existing cars, so that means I have the £2000 budget needed for a set of 40x50aha Thunder Sky LCP cells.

2) I also want to see if anyone on here in the UK wants to join in a UK Bulk purchase of TS cells so we can get the price down. My post's on several EV sites are hoping to get some support from the UK EV Community.

Quote:
"I'm starting a thread on the UK BVS society forum to discuss this
idea, and to gather firm expressions of interest and commitment from
other UK EV enthusiasts who would be up for participating in another
UK bulk purchase of TS cells. Note the bulk purchase is for LCP/LMP
cells only not LFP which have licensing problems.

You need to register on the BVS forum to particiapte or post re this,
and all discussion will take place on the BVS forum thread.

http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk ... php?t=1010

http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en. ... 66&fid2=70

This would be run along the same lines as the first UK one in 2003,
and would involve money up front to the UK agent (Reap systems) and a
minimum 12 week delivery time via sea to Southampton, where all cells
would be collected by the individuals from the group. You should bank
on no guarantees whatsoever, and make your mind up on that basis.
This bulk purchase is not affiliated with or backed by the BVS or any
individual.

The price I/we are aiming for is £1.00 - £1.10 per Ah inc vat and
import duty/shipping etc. So a 50ah cell will cost £50-£55 each. We
could get lucky and depending on total quantity maybe get a lower
price!

I'm happy to put my money up front as I did before for a new set of
45 x TS-LCP50AHA Cells for my Honda Insight PHEV project.

Add your name and comments to this thread together with details and
quantities of cells your are interested in. Note no LFP cells!

I will liase with Reap Systems so questions on the forum only at this
time please, I know they are busy moving offices.

Final commitment will be required by the end of April 08. This gives
us a month to spread the word and make up our minds. If we cannot
raise a big enough order then the purchase may not go ahead at all,
so the more the merrier.

Peter
I'm happy to build up the TS cells into a useable battery pack and I can take the sensors and heat sensing strips etc out of one of my spare IMA packs and incorporate them into the new pack or fake the signals as required.

Now asuming I have a functioning battery pack of say 45 ah useable capacity compared to the 4.5 ah of a normal IMA pack, how can I/we con the current sensors in the IMA system to think it's still dealing with a 4.5 ah pack and register the charge/soc correctly, Divide current sensor outputs by 10? Ideas?

I will probably add a little pic and lcd display to monitor battery pack parameters independently of the car systems as fail safe system.
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

Quote:
Originally Posted by retepsnikrep
Now asuming I have a functioning battery pack of say 45 ah useable capacity compared to the 4.5 ah of a normal IMA pack, how can I/we con the current sensors in the IMA system to think it's still dealing with a 4.5 ah pack and register the charge/soc correctly, Divide current sensor outputs by 10? Ideas?
I think this is why Mike ended up using a DC/DC to feed a controlled amount of current into the stock pack, thorugh the stock current sensor. It is almost certainly easier to build a BMS for the additional pack and use it to feed the stock pack in a way the IMA can handle than to try to trick the IMA into "seeing" a larger battery. The BCM hasn't been fully cracked- that is, its behavior isn't completely understood.

But if you can find a way to get the IMA to handle a larger capacity battery, you'll definitely earn a cookie.

EDIT: It may be easier than previously thought: http://www.insightcentral.net/commun...start=0#p65966 Giggitty.

Looking forward to hearing about your progress on this.

Cheers
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

I can't believe I missed this thread, I actually found it doing a google search for phev Insight

So far I have been running mine for a week with the parallel setup, charging about 1.2 KWh every night which works out to just under 10 cents worth of electricity at 7.2 cents a KW. My in town stop and go driving on my 10 mile daily commute (spread out over three different times) as been as high as 100+ mpg and as low as 70 mpg. Normally I am around 50mpg - 60mpg for the same route. I figure gas has been costing me about 5.8 cents a mile @ 60mpg. With a 85 mpg average it is at 4.1 cents a mile. With PHEV I can spread out the batteries over the ten miles, for an additional 1 cent per mile cost on electricity, for a total of 5.1 cents per mile.

Basically, to make it economical, at $3.50 a gallon for gas, and 7.2 cents a KWh or 10 cents a charge. These numbers will also vary depending on size of the batteries, the length of the commute, etc.:

For my 10 mile daily:

If you got 55 mpg before, you need to get 65 mpg to break even
If you got 65 mpg before, you need to get 80 mpg to break even
If you got 75 mpg before, you need to get 95 mpg to break even
If you got 95 mpg before, you need to get 130 mpg to break even

So it all boils down to the cost of gas and electricity. As gas gets to be more expensive the numbers shift in favor of PHEV. So far I'm past the break even point, minus the $500 I have into batteries, charger, and parts for the parallel mod. Also learning what techniques work best for PHEV will raise the average mpg.
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Old 05-10-2008, 06:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

uhtrinity has posted about his parallel setup... after recal his Insight makes use of the 8ish Ah it has from two packs... I don't think anyone yet knows how high the Honda BCM will adjust for Ah capacity of a pack....

If it is based on the hardware limits of the memory used in the BCM then it should be following the binary pattern... so 8Ah works, if it goes above that then 16Ah would be next and 32Ah after that etc.... if it will track the Ah of your 45+4 = 49Ah combined capacity then that would mean it might go as high as 64Ah.

If it is software limited it could stop adjusting for higher Battery Ah capacity at any point.... but uhtrinity's test show it at least gets up near 8Ah.

Although I personally still prefer the other connection points that Mike has been using at the MDM posts to the Battery... This combined with Current limiting controls makes a nice Boost system... the boost systems supplied current offsetting current that comes from the IMA battery... and the BCM tracks the IMA battery as designed to... In order to make the boost battery safe you add a separate BCM of your own design to the booster battery.... a PHEV charged boost battery will not mess up the BCM or cause recal.
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Old 05-15-2008, 10:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Lithium Choices

I'm pondering on what cells to get for my PHEV project.

A new UK supplier importing Li-fepo4 cells has appeared with "reasonable" prices. The data sheets for the various cells are here.

http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/10AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/20AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/30AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/40AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/50AH.doc

Sorry they are in WORD.doc format as I got them.

Charging looks like the issue with these can/will they take 50A charge for short periods?

Should I retain the nimh pack as a buffer and use the Li purely to boost the nimh or should I replace the nimh and go with a replacement li pack, a bit of work to con the BCM but not impossible. I'm happy enough to sort my own BMS for the Li and I have a suitable offboard charger so that's no problem.

I like the look of the 30ah cells x 48 gives reasonable weight, circa 50kg. I don't want to lug around huge weight. If I replace nimh then that cuts down excess to about 30kg over standard. They can push 90A for 15 seconds, so can probably manage 100A for the short periods of full assist.

I could get 50ah TS lcp cells they have better capacity to weight ratio and are very rugged but not state of the art. Choices

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Old 05-15-2008, 10:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

At 10A charge / discharge, or 90A instantaneous the only way you could use them would be as a booster like Mike did. Any stand alone configuration would have to be a parallel setup plus an external charger. With a standalone setup wouldn't you also have to disable regen or can this type of battery take a charge using conventional methods for short periods of time?


On my setup I have been using very heavy manual assist over my 10 mile commute and have had some days where I don't quite use all 8Ah's.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

Hey fellows check this out for a conversion....http://www.poulsenhybrid.com:80/

DGate
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:39 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgate
Hey fellows check this out for a conversion....http://www.poulsenhybrid.com:80/

DGate
Very interesting, not sure about how the 5kw of torque arm would pop rivet onto the rear fender But good idea all the same.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

I would modify or loose the spat and only use one unit since the Insight is so light and easy to roll.
A modified spat would bulge out to cover the motor protrusion and have a vertical slot where the torgue arm went through.
Seems to me the torgue arm could go to the front or rear depending on door configuration and could be mounted in a number of ways not just riveted to the fender.
With anything like this you have to use your imagination in mounting it to different cars.
I should also hope the arm is slotted or splined to extend since the demo picture has the arms pivot point at the rear and the cars trailing arm suspension's pivot point at the front, Impossible geometry without this facility.

DGate
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phev Insight

If the pivot arm could be placed in front, it may be best for the Insight for a couple of reasons:

1) The arm could be mounted to something more solid than the rear plastic bumber.

2) Because of the taper towards the rear, there is more internal room for the pivot arm so that it will not stick out (as much or not at all).

3) You may be able to keep a modified splat on the car and have the arm behind the splat. The splat would still have to be modified to stick out more due to the motor thickness but it could probably all fit behind the splat.

Although some people may think it will look strange installed, it does seem to be one of the easiest ways to adapt to just about any vehicle.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
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