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Old 06-13-2008, 03:44 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default HHO project

Has anyone heard of these kits:

http://www.savefuel.ca/hydrogen/smallpr ... arproducts

it's already made and just needs to be installed. Does anyone know if it will work in the hybrid vehicle?

Please, I would like this to be a serious discussion.

I, like, may people out there, am fed up with the high cost of fuel prices, and gas gouging.

A brief story: I had a lot of people laugh when I purchased my car in 2001. I already knew that there was a future with regenerative braking. My dad and I had extensive discussion of NRG lost and transfer. As the first law of thermodynamics states, NRG is neither created nor destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
There's so much NRG in the internal combustion engine, plus heat loss in the brakes. We've thought for a long time that there should be a way to conserve the NRG loss to heat in the braking system, or even use that to convert to electric power instead of using an alternator. Low and Behold, Volvo will be coming out with regenerative braking system in the brakes and using it as electric motors.

it can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJwQ18I0vgY

So back to the main topic, if there is such a device to use water as a power source, or even the talk of trihybrids, then it can be possible to get the 100+ mpg without having to lose all the space in the trunk.

Dan 2001 Monte Carlo Blue, 180k, 48 to 57 mpg, depends if my wife drives the car.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

Watter is not a fuel... water can be used in a steam engine , but water is not the fuel the wood or coal that heats it is.... water can be injected into the engine to help control temperature.... but water itself is not a fuel... there is no magic way to get around this.

This and what they are talking about has been discussed many times before.

use a search...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7158&p=63025&hilit=+water+wate r+fuel#p63025

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6711&hilit=+water+water+fuel

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4918&hilit=+water+water+fuel

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3693&hilit=+water+water+fuel

They are using the higher flame speed of hydrogen in order to sustain a lean burn process in a Engine not built to do lean burn like the Insight's engine is.

Energy is lost as the conversions are not 100% efficient in each step... You get better results from the way that Honda does it's lean burn in the Insight Engine Design...

So the answer is... Your Honda Insight in lean burn already does this and does a better job of it.

They convert some of the mechanical energy of the ICE into electrical energy from the alternator 10% + Losses ( 90 out of 100 ) .... they use this electricity to power a electrolysis process 30% + Losses ( 63 out of original 100 ) ... they use the electrolysis to split watter two hydrogens and one oxygen into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas.... they inject the hydrogen gas into the air intake.... Hydrogen has a much higher flame speed than gasoline does.... The higher flame speed lets the combustion process continue to leaner fuel conditions than it would normally....

As said above the Insights Lean burn mode does a better and more efficient process of getting the same lean burn operation.... without the ~40%+ losses of energy from the unnecessary conversion steps.

Also Remember if you put 2 Hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom together they will combine into water HHO will become H2O all by itself... you can not store them in the same container ... unless of course... the container is constantly kept at very high temperatures... temperatures above 3,000 degrees F can split water with the heat instead of the electricity as a electrolysis process does.... but 3,146 F will only have about 0.69% Hydrogen splitting .... even as high as 5,846 F you only get 57.43% Hydrogen splitting.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:57 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

Quote:
Please, I would like this to be a serious discussion.


Sorry for chuckling, but for anyone to have a serious discussion, there needs to be a serious subject to discuss... bottom-feeders who sell these miracle-cure devices rely on consumer unawareness, Iamian is our good friend and has sage advice for you...

Alright already, enough with nitpicking, let's try for a serious discussion. Pioneers, such as you in 2001, showed it was possible to purchase a drivable, comfortable, reliable vehicle that approached 70 mpg at times, and certainly doubled whatever mileage the best car in your average parking lot was getting at any time. Honda was wise to use all the technology available 10-12 years ago to make the Insight... even though at the time, there was no pressing need for a fuel-efficient car (gas was at $0.89 a gallon for our first recorded fill-up!), and by its very nature, the Insight was to be a very limited-production, loss-leader exercise. Surely, if they went to the trouble to shave weight by, say, using a carbon-fiber oil dipstick, they probably spent a buck or two researching each and every gas-saving gadget out there.

Regenerative braking and the capture of wasted heat is just one small step towards conserving energy, but it doesn't save [convert] that much energy and even if it did, at what overall cost? There's enough to recharge the battery slightly, but the battery does not have enough capacity or power to drive the car great distances. You could get bigger batteries at greater cost, reliability, and weight penalties, but why? It's a delicate balance, one very well suited to everyday ownership and cost constraints. NRG can be changed, but not easily or reliably or cheaply (at least by standards required in a mass-produced product, like an automobile, that needs to be reliable and virtually bulletproof for consumers to drive daily even if abused).

Kudos to Volvo for trying to develop new technology, let's see how well they do, although I fear, without the deep coffers (hah!) of FoMoCo, if indeed Ford jettisons them soon, just like they just discarded Rover and Jaguar due to, er, shallowing coffers, Volvo may not be able to spend the time and effort necessary to remain competitive, much less come up with experimental cars. I so hope I'm wrong about this...

I am also intrigued by (and thought about years ago) the principle behind the Chevy Volt, where a very small, fuel-efficient ICE would be used to power a generator that would produce enough power to recharge batteries and/or motivate electric hub motors at one or more wheels of the vehicle. I didn't see how it could be made to work for long-range cruising, but apparently GM is working with batteries that can take the abuse of deep discharge and recharge cycles, and continue to work reliably, while maintaining weight and space constraints. Can it be done and will you see it at a Chevy dealership in the near future? That's the secret, to make something that can be warrantied, a customer can drive every day, and doesn't cost as much as an aircraft carrier...

There is no perpetual motion, alas, although some people swear it's possible... if I could make a car that runs on pure electric, with solar panels, regenerative braking, heat-to-electric transfer technology, a generator attached to the rear wheels that produces power while the car is in motion, with air-powered spinners to create more power, and maybe even with piezo-electric hand cranks for the passenger to recharge and top off the batteries... I could make a billion dollars!
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

"There's so much NRG..."

Sheesh... I stopped reading right there. Why would anyone take this seriously, when the [several descriptive adjectives deleted] person can't even spell the word energy? I see two possibilities: either the author is aiming to sell to a target market of semi-literate ignoramuses, or he is one himself.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

There is no need for personal insults like the one in the previous post

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

Not an insult - I deleted quite a list of what might have been considered such - but a simple statement. If you think otherwise, please offer some plausible alternative explanation for the original post.

I for one am getting pretty darn tired of dealing with such combinations of snake oil & conspiracy theory. Trying to politely point out the holes in their theories hasn't worked. Maybe bluntness will.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:32 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

I don't know if it is a scam or not... but it is not accurately describing what it is that they are doing, how it works and the costs.

For instance Lean burn in the Insight greatly improves MPG and it is not uncommon while in lean burn to see 100+ MPG.... does that mean that it makes the car get 100 MPG... the answer is yes... but if not properly explained people will get the wrong idea that you are then getting 100MPG all the time under all conditions and such... and that is not true... using small amounts of hydrogen injected into an engine to allow for leaner running will also greatly improve MPG... but only under certain conditions... they are not clearly explaining the draw backs... like anyone trying to sell something they only tell you the good stuff about their product. ... I wouldn't expect them to do otherwise... but in this case it easily confuses people to think it is doing something it is not.

---------------------------------

Such a device would give a MPG boost to a vehicle that does not have a lean burn function like the insight or a cylinder deactivation system like some other cars... for those vehicles with none of these options... it could offer improved MPG... but around 30% less of a improvement than those engines that were designed to run in a lean burn mode like the insight does... this lowered improvement is because of the efficiency losses of the steps used.

So when the insight hits lean burn and goes from 50MPG to 75MPG... a 25MPG increase ... if you had another vehicle that was already getting 50MPG like some other small car... if you added a device like this properly installed I would expect it to ~60 MPG , instead of the 75 MPG the insight gets...

now just like when the insight goes into lean burn, if you keep your pedal level and do not change it the act of going into lean burn reduces the power you get from the engine... the power loss from such a hydrogen injected system to get lean burn would be more than the power loss from the insight lean burn.... this is because Hydrogen's very low energy per unit volume and because the engine is not designed to operate in a lean burn mode.

so in short Honda did better...

-------------------------------

Toyota went the other way... instead of going into lean burn they used the synergy drive to keep the engine RPMs in the happy place ... thus keeping the Gas engine running as efficiently as possible as much of the time as possible.

Other companies choose other options like cylinder deactivation, and such.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: HHO project

From IamIan "Watter is not a fuel... water can be used in a steam engine...." Water is definitely not fuel, I agree with that statement. All those "ignoramouses" as james puts it are trying to market water as fuel. water can be used to power the steam engine, and what was that power? Coal or Kerosene.

The fuel cell technology is using hydrogen gas (which needs to be generated and refined, which takes NRG to be produced by the way), plus oxygen which is already in the air, and a catalyst. This reaction causes electricity to be produced with no degradation to the cathodes or anodes, unlike a simple car battery, where ultimately the H2SO5 (hydrosulfuric acid) pretty much turns into water. The specific gravity of water is 1, so if one opens the small tops of the battery and use a hygrometer to measure the specific gravity, that is how to measure it. Plus batteries do sometimes boil the H2SO4 out if there's too much overcharging in the system.

So the "fuel" that fuel cells use is hydrogen.

There are ways of making that hydrogen, which is what Mythbusters did, but failed to put a catalyst like baking soda or potassium hydroxide (KOH) to produce the necessary amount of hydrogen to power their beat up car.

I'm not saying that this homemade contraption will give you the necessary hydrogen to run the car alone, look how big the tanks are in the cars running on CNG.

Will it be possible to use the hydrogen produced to power the fuel cell without having to top off at a hydrogen station?

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Einstein
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." Einstein
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." Roald Dahl
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