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Old 11-11-2008, 02:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Battery reconditioning experience

I am neither a professional nor an enthusiast but needs must. My battery was obviously not well and I could not afford a new one. After standing for three or four days it would do a recall after a few minutes driving and I was getting IMA alarms which required a battery disconnect to reset, especially after accelerating hard on the motorway.

After researching on Insight Central and asking for help Peter Perkins loaned me a charger conditioner, sent me three spare sticks and I set to work in my summer holiday. I used a battery charger with the Honda’s under bonnet battery as a smoother to power Peter’s Robitronic charger/conditioner and a multimeter with a temperature probe (£20 ish) to keep an eye on things.

I was only able to insert the temperature probe between the black plastic and the orange cells in the end rows but that was enough to tell me what was going on without, and with, a cooling fan. Even out of the case the cells get very hot charging at 5 amps. (The second stick reached 56 degrees C by the third cycle). I ended up cooling them with a flannel dipped in cold water, wrung out and wrapped around the cells, replaced as necessary. After that experience I took off the integral fan and used an old car heater fan (you could use a mains powered fan heater on cold) and cardboard ducting held together with duct tape. This rig, also powered by the battery charger, blew through the whole battery enabling minimum dismantling and quick switching of charger leads from stick to stick. (The fan drew about one amp). I wasn't happy about possibly damaging the integral fan by running it 24 hours a day for ten days.

Once I was happy with what was going on with the end sticks I cycled the rest. 20 Amp discharge, 5 Amp charge, 5 cycles, about 8-9 hours per stick. It took 10 days and I did it on a Workmate in my bedroom changing sticks over when the end of sequence alarm sounded. (I didn't sleep well). In theory you could just do it over 9 days, Friday night to the following Sunday evening.

Peters Robitronic charger records the discharge and charge capacities for each cycle and measures the internal resistance, but as I discovered it loses all the info instantly when disconnected from the supply! I recorded the last discharge and charge in milliamps and the internal resistance. To find the discharge rate is time consuming if you wait 24 hours and then do a top up charge. I actually divided the top up charge before reassembly (in milliamps) by the time since the 5th cycle to get the daily rate. (Fortunately I had worked to a (fairly) logical sequence).

I actually had to replace four sticks which were self discharging at very high rates. When I checked one appeared to have a dead cell which was not warming at all when charging and another was just weird. It had a high internal resistance and on the fifth cycle it discharged 20% more than it subsequently charged. The 18th stick I worked on gave 32 mA on the first discharge. The first few gave about 4,500. Extrapolating from that some sticks were self discharging at about 600/700 mA per day. Later I found some that were self discharging at nearly 1000mA per day. Peter's spare sticks all had IR's of about 26 mOhms, mine varied between 42 and 56 mOhms.

Some sticks/cells were self discharging at very high rates. I suspect that after standing for a few days on starting up all appeared normal but, after a few stops and starts the duff cells dragged the whole battery down and triggered a recal/IMA alarm. From the foregoing I deduce that an even self discharge rate for all cells may be a critical factor. I tried to work out self discharge rates for each stick but unfortunately I had no idea the info would be important so did not note the time and date when I finished cycling each stick. Something for others to make a note of in future? To make matters worse three weeks on I was getting confused about my fairly logical sequence. (God Bless Amnesia!) What would be interesting and possibly useful would be for some enthusiastic person to collect data from other owners and see if it is possible to correlate discharge/charge capacity, internal resistance and self discharge rate. Possibly also against cell age and maybe also use/type of driving.

It is now over two months since doing the work The IMA light stayed on after reconnecting everything but reset itself next time I used the car. Since then I have had one IMA warning for no apparent reason which reset itself and one recal. It has stood for eight days with no problems except that autostop would not play until I switched off and restarted! I am definitely getting a lot more assist for longer. I do fear that I am putting off the inevitable replacement, however the battery consistently charges to 19 bars (two more than before) and with Honda’s miserly set up rarely drops below 13 or 14 bars, so I am beginning to think that keeping the battery fairly well charged and using the car regularly will prolong battery life. An in car conditioner/balancer sounds very interesting. It would appear that a few failing cells throw the whole system and cause a recalibration. Grid charging would help prevent a recal by keeping the battery charged when not being used, but would it help prevent cells failing? I suspect that “use it or lose it” applies.

It was definitely worth doing, the car is working better. More assist for longer and faster recharging. I am now regularly achieving 60 mpUSg (75 mpUKg) and completing my two hundred mile commute in three hours. (It is a CVT car but still uses less than half the fuel used by my brothers MX-5)

For those who may be tempted to have a go I can supply a little practical advice. However I must stress that there are high voltages, bare connectors, delicate electronics, puzzles, fiddly bits and heavy units to move/lift.

THERE IS POTENTIAL TO DO YOURSELF SERIOUS INJURY OR EVEN KILL YOURSELF

Having said that I am not a professional electrician or electronic engineer. I am a former ships officer with some radio and domestic wiring experience. By taking my time and seeking help when unsure I was able to complete this work safely and satisfactorily and save myself a lot of money.
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:22 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

Great report Ccaptian24

Thanks for going to the effort of sharing your expereince with the other Insighters here.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

good stuff... thanks for posting
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

Just out of curiosity .... how did you extrapolate the self discharge?

The only thing I can think of to do this ...

First test to verify what a batteries capacity is... To do this several ( 2 or 3 ) full charge and discharge cycles would be needed in order to rule out statical anomalies.

Then, after it has been fully charged to discharge it after a specific period of time ....

Lastly , compare the yielded Ah after a set number of days compared to the same battery yielding Ah of capacity after a shorter period of time.

Is that anything close to the method you used?
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:56 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

Very approximately!

I did not realise how fast some of the sticks were discharging until nearly halfway through cycling the sticks.

Initially; 1st charge minus 1st discharge divided by time days) since car last used (battery at then max charge).

Later; top up charge divided by time (days) since completion of 5th cycle charge.

I am not an electronics engineer nor a battery specialist and have never attempted to recondition anything other than a lead acid battery before. My aim was to restore the battery to a reliably usable state. I was learning by trial and error. That I succeeded beyond my expectations is thanks to Peters help.

As I was learning I did not know what I was looking for and as I said my records (and memory) proved inadequate for a detailed analysis. If I do it again I know what I am looking for. I was also under pressure to finish as the car is my main transport and I could only do the work at home, during my holiday.

Peter suggested that it may be difference in individual cells self discharge rate which causes recals and IMA codes. My experience supports this which is why I put this report on i/c. The report is largely copied from emails between myself and Peter.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ccaptain24
I did not realise how fast some of the sticks were discharging until nearly halfway through cycling the sticks.

Initially; 1st charge minus 1st discharge divided by time days) since car last used (battery at then max charge).

Later; top up charge divided by time (days) since completion of 5th cycle charge.
Sorry to be a pest... I must be a bit thick... I'm just still a little confused.

It almost sounds like you are comparing the Ah you charged into the battery against the Ah you charged into the battery at a latter time... and then divided the difference in Ah you charged into the battery by the number of days between charges... Am I reading you correctly?
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Old 11-14-2008, 02:47 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

That's is what's meant.

1) Cycle a few times to get them working. We used 5ah charge and 20ah discharge rate

2) Charge cells up,

3) wait X days or hours

4) either Discharge until cutoff noting loss in capacity or Charge cells until full noting capacity absorbed, to give an indication of capacity lost in period X.

Work out daily self discharge rate and then pick subpacks with least SD rate or equally matched specs as possible

IMO Self discharge is certainly one of the factors affecting the overall pack performance, so we tried to go for subpacks that were similar capacity, IR and calculated self discharge rate when selecting the cells to be used in the final restored pack.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

You can't take the capacity you charged into the battery as an accurate indication of battery capacity. You will always put more Ah into the battery than you will get out due to inefficiencies. This can be up to 50-60% more Ah in than you will get out.

A better way (more scientific?) to test battery health would be to check it's impedance. The theory is that you apply a known AC current to the battery and measure the resulting AC voltage. V=IR gives you the resistance (or impedance in this case).

Impedance meters are really expensive though, like $500 and up. You might be able to get good results if you applied say 150VAC to the entire pack, measure the AC current (take some steps to limit it, it should be about C/10 to C/4 ish) going into the entire pack (and since it is a series pack, each cell will experience this current), and then measure the AC current on each cell or sub-pack as desired. Because this method isn't precisely calibrated like a $5000 meter it is best for relative measurements, if you find one cell or stick that has a higher impedance than the others, chances are it's the problem.

I can't verify how well the above method would work, building something like it is on my never ending list of stuff (and it's pretty low down there). But I recall reading about it somewhere on teh internets.

You should also do the test at about 80% of a full charge. The impedance is significantly higher at full or empty states.
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeFiend
You can't take the capacity you charged into the battery as an accurate indication of battery capacity. You will always put more Ah into the battery than you will get out due to inefficiencies.
I agree... ( mostly )

If instead of the Ah put into the battery you counted the Ah you could get out of the battery when it was fully charged... you would get an idea of what it's storage capacity is... especially if you compared this number over multiple discharge from full cycles ... than after it is fully charged and you know what to expect for a discharge Ah rating ... you can wait the number of days and do a discharge to determine the difference between the capacity you determined the battery has compared to what you got after it had been sitting for so many days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeFiend
A better way (more scientific?) to test battery health would be to check it's impedance. The theory is that you apply a known AC current to the battery and measure the resulting AC voltage. V=IR gives you the resistance (or impedance in this case).
Be careful not to confuse impedance with resistance ... V=IR , is for Resistance... not necessarily the same thing for impedance.... it can be but it doesn't have to be... for instance some of the impedance you would measure is from the inductor properties and capacitor properties of the battery... those effects would show up in your dV @ a given current, and they would be an effective amount of Ohms ... but they are not resistance... even if they are impedance.... and once you start dealing with AC you have to correct for the phase of the voltage to the current... unlike DC , the voltage and the current do not happen in phase with each other in AC.... the voltage can lead ahead of the current when the voltage creates the current ... or the voltage can follow behind the current when the current flow creates the voltage... in AC there is a delay between the two things , they generally do not both happen at exactly the same time, like they do in DC.

You are correct about many battery people using impedance measurements of a battery as a way of determining battery health... but it is not as simple as a number x = a y state of health... different batteries go in different directions... depending on the chemical structure of the cell ... for instance some batteries fail toward a 0 Ohm direction resulting in a straight wire like connection across the battery ... while other batteries fail in the other direction getting higher Ohms.

I would also say that the impedance or the internal resistance of a battery I would not use alone as a sole means of determining what batteries to match together... I would also suggest adding into your information you use to make the selection ... the Ah storage capacity of the batteries.... as well as already suggested the self discharge rates of the batteries.... All of these things are useful pieces of information about any battery.

Game On

Thanks again for your post... even if I do not think you were actually measuring the self discharge rate.
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Old 11-15-2008, 02:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery reconditioning experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeFiend
You can't take the capacity you charged into the battery as an accurate indication of battery capacity. You will always put more Ah into the battery than you will get out due to inefficiencies. This can be up to 50-60% more Ah in than you will get out.
Of course we realise that. But it gives a base point, and if all the others are done the same way using the same equipment, you can get consistent and reliable results from which to make a judgement about which cells appear to hold charge better/be performing better etc. The amounts don't matter per se, it's the differing amounts which is the issue
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