Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum
 
Go Back   Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum > 1st-Generation Honda Insight Forum > Modifications and Technical Issues

Please Visit our Site Sponsors Page
Insightcentral.net is the premier Honda Insight Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
» Wheel & Tire Center

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-19-2009, 04:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Birmingham, U.K.
Posts: 280
Default Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

I wish to start a thread that discusses the use and building of coolant heaters and block heaters as I think it will usefully improve the car for those with access to mains power when their car is parked. They have benefits even when used in summer temperatures, so you might wish to read on even if you don't live up north.

A quick rundown of the benefits of these things would be a good start, so here goes.

1. Reduced fuel consumption. On my 40 mile trip, at zero temperatures it works out at 10%. Short trips will be substantially more.
2. Reduced engine wear. About 80% of engine wear is caused because we start our engines from cold.
3. Improved comfort. The cars interior gets warm quicker, or is already warm, if the water is circulated to the heater matrix with it's fan blowing.
4. The windscreen stays fog free. If heat circulation is used, the warmed screen will not attract condensation and can even have de-iced itself for you.

All this will cost you about 15 pence at UK domestic rates, less if you have cheaper night rate electricity, or use a small heater.

I will now run through the options available to heat the coolant to get these benefits.

Plenty of cars have what is known as a "fuel burning heater" fitted. This is not something you plug in to the mains. Instead it burns the fuel of the car to generate the heat. This makes it useable anywhere you like, but it burns quite a bit of fuel in the process (about a quarter litre I think) so it is not really for us, plus they are very expensive. Don't rule them out completely for other cars though. The Volvo estates have them as a £1500 option, which initially sounds horrendous, but that should pay for itself in a couple of years and has given you a comfy car that has not worn itself out. Aftermarket firms do make these, see http://www.webasto.co.uk/general/en/am_ ... _3177.html

Moving on to grid powered devices, there are small block heaters just like the standard Honda Insight fitment that are designed to increase the temperature of your engine coolant, especially in cold climates. The low power of these does not lend itself to you pumping the coolant to the interior heater matrix. They rely purely on convection currents to circulate the water around the engine block so when you un plug the car in the morning you have a nice warm engine and the top bit of the radiator, but the rest of the coolant is much colder. A stock Canadian Honda Insight block heater goes straight in where the block coolant drain plug is, and it works just fine. If you go this route, for gods sake make sure you do not over tighten the thing when you fit it. USE a torque wrench and do not guess. It is approx 400 watts, gets the coolant up to 180 degrees F in about two hours on a cold day. The net result of this is that the engine starts nice and easy, then the water temperature dives a bit once it starts circulating. It then takes a drive of about 1.5 miles to get back up to full temperature, rather than the 5 or 6 miles it would have taken if you had a standard cold car. You save somewhere around 10% up to 30% on short trips, and save on engine wear as well. Don't forget to un plug the bloody thing before you drive off though.
Peter Perkins is looking to combine the use of a Prius style thermos flask with an integral thermostatically controlled element and a separate circulating pump. This would be way more efficient as far as power consumption is concerned, and will allow you to trap the free heat as well as allowing you to keep the thermos piping hot, but will have limitations when warming the majority of the coolant. The power required would be so low as to even allow the use of a 12 volt dc element should you wish.

Next up are the heaters that work on the grid just like the small block heater but are more like 1,500 to 3,000 watts. These are way too powerfull to rely on just convection currents to move the water as it would start boiling! They are fitted in conjunction with an electric circulating pump which means that the entire coolant system of the car gets taken to running temperature, and should you wish, the interior of the car can get heated into the bargain if the water is allowed to flow through the heater matrix and the interior fan is made to operate. A system like this will warm a small car up in about 30 to 40 minutes. Aftermarket systems are still expensive, with some linking into the simpler car heating systems. To get the full benefit of interior heat using one of these systems, the Insights climate control system would have to have been set to "full heat" to open the coolant valve and the mode would have to be set to windshield to get any screen de frosting. On top of this, either some sort of additional fan needs to be fitted into the ducting, or the Insights standard fan would need to be isolated from the climate control circuitry using relays or whatever, and then powered up by the new pre-heater system. See http://www.kenlowe.com/pre-heaters/cars/index.html

Now on to the back yard DIY systems, as all the aftermarket stuff costs an arm and a leg.

I am going to be talking about the powerful systems with a circulating pump from now on, as the low power, convection circulating systems are perfectly covered by Hondas standard block heater.

When selecting a heating element, it needs to be suitable for easy mounting into some sort of robust leak proof container. At the moment, in the UK, ASDA is selling a cheap "smart price" cordless kettle for £3 that has an element that fits the bill, so you won't get much cheaper than that. (Look inside and check it has a visible coiled element and check underneath to check you can see the element mounting screws)

The electric circulating pump must be suitable for hot coolant and preferably must have no shaft seals, as you would find on say the typical domestic washing machine water pumps. Look for electric automotive coolant pumps on ebay and you should see a few that will do. They seem to be about £40, and have usually been part of an oem pre-heating system. I am probably going to use a Range Rover pump that is found on the supercharged versions. It pumps coolant to the supercharger whenever the ignition is on, so it is well up to the job, is self contained, with the electric motor actually running in the coolant itself, so no seals and no overheating of the motor.

There needs to be a system in place that ensures that the pump is circulating coolant before the element is powered up so the element does not boil static coolant. This needs to cut power to the element should the circulation fail for any reason. I have heard that some aftermarket systems have indeed burnt out elements because of circulation failures.

I will leave this for now, just to see what comments it garners, and add to it as things progress. Feel free to add ideas
__________________
Blessed are the "cracked" for it is they who let in the light.
Roger Crier is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-19-2009, 05:20 PM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: United Kingdom/USA
Posts: 536
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

Roger the Prius has a three litre vacuum bottle that maintains the coolant temp for up to five days for the very reasons you mentioned.
Why not use one of these out of a damaged car? With this system you would not have to plug it in and it would work on any journey away from your electric outlet throughout the day. There already is a pump involved that bleeds off hot coolant after shutting down to store in the container then on switching on its reintroduced to the head. Works a treat and I find I also have heat almost instantly for the passenger compartment as you stated.
Probably not as good as the design you propose of having continous heat for the engine over night for a cold morning start up but if one could configure both systems to work together that would be the ultimate solution.

DGate
Dgate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 07:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
Administrator
 
retepsnikrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Thirsk North Yorkshire UK
Posts: 3,950
Send a message via MSN to retepsnikrep
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

viewtopic.php?t=6227

The thermos thread is above but went on the back burner when I got involved in Lithium. I will revist/complete this later this year hopefully once my BMS etc if finished. I bought the Prius control valve and pump specially for this purpose and have a suitable 2L stainless thermos.
retepsnikrep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Birmingham, U.K.
Posts: 280
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

I have done a quick and approximate costing on the use of my 400w block heater. Using it costs me ten pence of electricity and saves me twenty pence of fuel, so used only one way on my work trip I save £20 a year, get a warmer car and much reduced engine wear. That's win win win in my book.

The Prius flask is designed to harvest the energy we have already injected into the coolant from burning fuel and as that energy is going to go to waste, it in effect does it for free, so it is very clever. When it re-injects it at a later time it's clever a second time as all the energy it has managed to save means there is less fuel used warming the engine up again. Adding a small heating element into the flask is also very efficient and helps immensely, but the system falters slightly in that it can only contain a small amount of the hot coolant. The trouble is, that the quantity of coolant is small and the temperature is reduced as it mixes with the main body of coolant which is most always cooler to some extent.

Hypothetically, at the end of a trip you could remove the entire hot coolant content of the block, radiator and hoses if you sucked the coolant system down to a vacuum and then placed the coolant into a larger insulated flask, but later, if a cold engine block suddenly had that amount of hot coolant placed into it from this imaginary large vacuum flask, the cold block would probably crack from the expansion forces.While it is totally impractical for us to do this on a daily basis, amazingly, this is how cars are filled with coolant AND brake fluid on the production line. It is weird to watch as the fluids are sucked into every nook and cranny of the entire coolant or brake system using these vacuum filling methods.

So, given that the Prius system has it's limitations, gently warming the coolant to working temperatures over half an hour or so using exterior power will get a bigger hit in saved engine wear, saved fuel and comfort, even though a fairly large part of the power used may be entirely wasted warming up the street. If there is a Prius style flask in the system as well, then that is even better.
__________________
Blessed are the "cracked" for it is they who let in the light.
Roger Crier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 03:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: United Kingdom/USA
Posts: 536
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

Roger both systems have their limitations as you know......the Prius in not keeping the entire system at a predetermined temp and your suggested system in not working at all away from your electrical outlet.
I think we agree both systems would compliment each other and be the ultimate solution.
Think I might look into adding an element into the Prius system but cannot see where putting one in the flask would be of any use, It would have to be on the engine side to heat the coolant there as the flask is isolated when full.

Its usually colder at night and the mains powered full system would be ideal for O-Dark-30 departures whereby the vacuum flask would work other times during ones various startups during the day or evening return to base.
Probably easier to add this mod to the Prius since the complicated bits (flask system/pump/sensor)are already there and the mains heater should be simple.
Would add new meaning to the term PHEV

A further thought for day away time's... what about a solar collector..don't laugh we use them for domestic hot water heating. Also I seem to remember a heated dip stick for sump oil heating was available,will have to google it.

DGate
Dgate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 05:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 4,943
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

I looked into adapting the Prius system several years ago. Recyclers back then barely had a clue what a hybrid was. None had a clue about a thermos coolant bottle. Factory new parts were about $1000.00 . In addition to the bottle there is a control valve (prevents cold thermosiphoning) and circulating pump.

The control electronics are presumeably built into the ECM. Something that would need to be built from scratch for the conversion to fit an Insight.
__________________
02 5spd, 130k+Miles
Web: Hot Air Intake & Gauge lights peskiness Mod
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/581466
Insightful Trekker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 12:31 AM   #7 (permalink)
Administrator
 
retepsnikrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Thirsk North Yorkshire UK
Posts: 3,950
Send a message via MSN to retepsnikrep
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

John

I don't think the control electronics will be a problem. When I looked at my Prius three way control valve on the bench I found it's a simple bi-directional 12v motor driven diverter valve with a 0-5k pot on the top so the ecm knows the valve position. The pump was just a simple uni-directional 12v water pump. We can control all this and a couple of temp sensors with a suitable pic and drive a 16x2 lcd display to get some info for the driver. The difficult bit is plumbing it into the Insight system and finding somewhere for the thermos. In my prototype flask I included a 12v heater as it would be cheaper to heat the flask contents and much more effcient. I was/am intending to put it down in the front wing underneath the headlight.
retepsnikrep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 05:37 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: United Kingdom/USA
Posts: 536
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

Peter I fail to see why you would want to heat the flask contents with a 12 volt heater,can you enlighten me.

Upon shut down of an up to temperature engine hot coolant is pumped into the flask for release to a cold engine at a later startup. The book says it will remain hot for up to five days,obviously it looses heat over this period but for daily car use this loss would be insignificant.
Like Roger suggested it would be more beneficial to heat the coolant thats outside the flask ie the engine circuit and rely on the flask for the return journeys.

This whole concept would also benefit Prius owners if they install a block heater. Passenger compartment heat demands, require the Prius ICE to start almost instantly in winter when it could be in EV mode only. If a mains powered pre-heater was installed less fuel would be used at this time of year.

DGate
Dgate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 06:35 AM   #9 (permalink)
Administrator
 
retepsnikrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Thirsk North Yorkshire UK
Posts: 3,950
Send a message via MSN to retepsnikrep
Default Re: Benefits of Pre-heating the coolant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgate
Peter I fail to see why you would want to heat the flask contents with a 12 volt heater,can you enlighten me.
So you get hotter coolant available to pump back into engine.

Say you go for a short journey and engine only gets upto 70C, when you stop that is pumped into thermos, a few days later you start up, thermos coolant temp will have dropped a lot in this time, but it only uses a minsucle amount of power to maintain the coolant in the thermos at an optimum temp or even pre-heat it compared to pre-heating the entire block which acts like a giant radiator.

Also any 12v power source could be used to heat thermos coolant including a solar panel on back shelf. Also 12 volts means any connection to the car can be at a lower safer voltage with mains remaining indoors etc. It's like the block heater with an extra stage so you don't waste the energy. The hot water is only dumped into the block seconds before starting the car.

The 12v heater would only be used when an easy source of mains/solar/excess power is available.

Temp would be limited to avoid thermal expansion issues hopefully. I was going to try 80C as a max for the heater.

I'm finally working on the pic code and the schematic again now.
retepsnikrep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 12:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Birmingham, U.K.
Posts: 280
Default

Does anyone have any experience with the "Hot Frog" engine pre heater? It is the mains operated type and is about 1.5kW. I think it is German, and it is quite compact. I want to know if the pump impeller is driven inductively so there are no shaft seals. It can be found on uk ebay for £85.
__________________
Blessed are the "cracked" for it is they who let in the light.
Roger Crier is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:57 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2