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Old 05-04-2012, 03:48 AM   #1391 (permalink)
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I only understand about half of what you say, but if I perform the upgrade myself, I still need to build a discharger like the one you did with the halogen light, correct? Do I also need to buy a cable to connect the discharger? Anything else I need?

I love your work! Wish I understood more, but I'm trying.
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:25 AM   #1392 (permalink)
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Kenny,
We can make up the two discharger cables, as we did for Rush D, so you can build your own discharger, or you can get the thing built and ready to use.
Not sure what the availability of the Lowe's shop lights is, but I grabbed 32 of them while I could. 8 are already spoken for.
The dual 300W bulbs allow series wiring, to handle the 250V max that the charger can put out, and the power MOSFET is rated for 8A max, so at least until we find a good alternative, that is the best shop lite to start with. I was thinking that it may be worth trying to track down the importer and see if we can buy them directly.

The videos will go into plenty of detail and will hopefully explain all of this.
The bottom line is that when a pack gets old and is misbehaving. we would like to get it back into full working order, this involves topping to equalize the SOC, then discharging to measure capacity, and cycling to recover as much capacity as possible.
The charging and balancing takes care of getting all the cells to 100%, but because some cells were only being cycled on the low SOC part of their capacity, they have developed reduced AH capacity.
When the fully charged pack is discharged, and we stop the discharge at the point where the weakest cell runs out of AH, we have found the weakest cell and stopped, just where that weakest cell ran out of juice relative to the rest of the pack.
The higher that drop out point is in voltage, the weaker that cell is relative to the rest.
We run a couple of these cycles, and should see the run time and the voltage where this drop out happens get longer and lower in voltage.
When the drop out repeatedly stops at a voltages over 140V, we can assume that a cell has developed permanently reduced capacity due to possible overheating and venting.

If the pack is on the bench, and the connector board and protective cover on the other side is exposed, we have access to each end of each subpack.
With the addition of a jumper, or a fused jumper across the now exposed center taps for the switch and 100A fuse, we can connect the charger terminals directly to the + and - ends of the pack, and both charge and discharge.

We have a feature in the V2.2 code only accessible via the password protected tech mode where we can prevent the discharge detection from turning off the discharge. It will still beep to indicate that a drop out was detected, but it will continue to discharge.
This is the bad cell identifier mode.
With a simple DVM, we can run down the 20 subpacks, and the one with the weak cell will stand out clearly with nearly a volt lower voltage than the rest.
That is the cell/stick that needs to be replaced.
Manually stop the discharge, and mark the stick as one needing replacement.
Of course that cell is being reversed charged, but it is already bad, so we will be replacing it anyways.
At that point you may have isolated the only bad cell, or there may be another just behind like this pack:
http://99mpg.com/Projectcars/underst...ilverpacktest/

This pack had 5 cells that dropped out between 156 and 144V. It turned out that three of the cells were in the same subpack, so by changing 3 subpacks this pack would be in much better shape, and while still suffering from lower than new average capacity, we will have brought all the sticks into better capacity balance as well as better SOC balance.
I think the best time to do this would have been when the pack was first pulled from the car to do the harness install. Just let it run through 3 full automatic cycles,(the cycle data is stored in eeprom) and simply look at the minimum voltage reached for each cycle, and the discharge run time, to determine if you need to change a stick or not.
If you do, pull the ends off the pack and reconnect the charger/discharger to find the weakest sticks, replace or repair the sticks and your probably going to quite happy with the results.

Yes the source of replacement sticks is a problem, but I was thinking that since I have the equipment to replace a single cell, we could have you guys find the bad stick,send it to me, and I can to set up a repair system where we trace the "bad" stick, on my cell level tester, evaluate if it is toast, or repairable, and I can simply replace the bad cells with used ones that have been fully tested, and binned as to AH capacity, IR, and self leakage.
We can replace only the bad cell, send it back to you, and you will have brought the pack back into a useable state for the minimum cost.
The repaired subpack would come with a graph showing each cells performance under high current charge and discharge conditions, so you will have a hard copy of the final test of the stick, so you can be sure of what your getting.
We happen to know where there are thousands of used subpacks just sitting in a closet, and if the used sticks are separated into cells, tested, and binned, a single pack would yield 120 possible replacements instead of a max of 20 of questionable balance.
I will be rebuilding my cell level tester, so it can both charge and discharge the stick as a whole or on a cell by cell basis, all the while recording the process on a graph for analysis. As usual I can come up with projects faster than I can make them happen, but am thinking that since the weather is getting better, we may want to revive the Saturday workshops, so we can get some help with making this happen, and get a steady supply of packs that need help to better evaluate how well the process works.

Last edited by Mike Dabrowski 2000; 05-04-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:32 PM   #1393 (permalink)
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Mike,
Have I told you lately that I love you? You are absolutely my hero.

Don't send me the upgrade parts and I'll have you send me the light and cables and anything else I might need. (I'm totally broke right now, but probably temporary) I currently have 2 cars which seem to be fine, but I want to drive them for years to come. Please keep yourself safe. We need you.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:37 PM   #1394 (permalink)
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Gee Kenny I am blushing!
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:49 PM   #1395 (permalink)
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I've been trying to come up with a way of not having to get under the dash, pull the 5th fuse, wait 10 seconds and put it back in before starting my Insight after a Grid charge.

One way is to hack into the wires going to the 5th fuse and put a switch that you just turn off for 10 seconds. But that requires contorting yourself in that small space, finding the wires and then doing a nice clean hack so it becomes a good permanant addition.

Another way is to replace the fuse with 2 fuse spades that are connected to wires that have another fuse and switch in series. The wire on the switch is long enough so that a hole can be drilled in the plastic panel of the dash just in front of the fuse area. So you do a grid charge, sit in the drivers seat, flip the switch off for 10 secs, and then start the car... Simple.

I've looked for a simple plug in fuse kind of thing with 2 wires but can't seem to find one. Anybody got some suggestions?
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:09 PM   #1396 (permalink)
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Why aren't you just resetting the soc to 19 bars with the OBDIIC&C
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:12 PM   #1397 (permalink)
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Rush,
Blow a fuse, break off the plastic rear, so you can see the two terminals
put a good fuse in series with one side, and connect a wire to the other. finish with a switch in one of the cutouts, that is in series.
Switch on , the fuse is in the circuit, switch off, you reset the IMA.
MAke sure the switch can handle the 7.5A the fuse is rated for.

The SOC reset devices are so close to being finished, I just need to steal a day from every thing else to finish them.
or As peter said, use the OBDII C&C if you have one.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:12 PM   #1398 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retepsnikrep View Post
Why aren't you just resetting the soc to 19 bars with the OBDIIC&C
Well duh, I guess I missed that!

There have been so many pages to the thread and I guess I missed it in the manual.

How do I do the reset?

Thanks Peter,
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:16 PM   #1399 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Mike Dabrowski 2000;229841]Rush,
Blow a fuse, break off the plastic rear, so you can see the two terminals
put a good fuse in series with one side, and connect a wire to the other. finish with a switch in one of the cutouts, that is in series.
Switch on , the fuse is in the circuit, switch off, you reset the IMA.
MAke sure the switch can handle the 7.5A the fuse is rated for.
/[QUOTE]

That's exactly what I was going to do, just wondered if anybody had any idea if one of them already existed, there must be lots of times somebody want to reset a circuit by pulling the fuse. I was hoping it would be a manufactured item.

But it looks like I can do it from the OBDII.
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#1 - 2000 Silver #4965, not working now, 175k Miles, 61 LMPG - will probably turn into all Electric
#2 - 2000 Silver #4095, 212k Miles, 55 LMPG, OBDIIC&C by Peter, GCIM1 by Mike, New MaxIMA by Eli
www.TucsonEV.com
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:35 PM   #1400 (permalink)
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Peter,

Just read the manual -

IMA Soc Control Allows control/overide of IMA Battery Soc. Use with care!
Up = Set Soc High 19 Bars 75%
Setting the Soc high prevents/reduces the forced charge mode

Is that correct?

So are we actually resetting the SOC to its present value or just Setting it High to a predetermined value in your program. The last line - Setting the Soc high prevents/reduces the forced charge mode - sort of impled to me that while the car is on and the SOC Set High, the forced charge mode will be prevented/reduced.

Then later down you say - If the battery is truly exhausted or completely full then your Soc seting will be overidden by the BCM safeties almost immediately - If that is true why is Mike selling his SOC reset which, according to him - could be used to set the battery SOC to a high level after a grid charge has been completed.

Then the car will know to expect the battery to be at its high SOC instead of where it last thought it was. And IIRC somewhere in the Grid Charger thread there is a discussion that the #5 fuse must be removed for the car to relearn the SOC.

So I guess I'm asking is your resetting the - SOC High 19 Bars 75% - the same as pulling #5 fuse?
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#1 - 2000 Silver #4965, not working now, 175k Miles, 61 LMPG - will probably turn into all Electric
#2 - 2000 Silver #4095, 212k Miles, 55 LMPG, OBDIIC&C by Peter, GCIM1 by Mike, New MaxIMA by Eli
www.TucsonEV.com
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