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Old 08-28-2009, 08:56 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Peter,

Is that charging socket always hot then?

Could you not do a 4 way socket, with 2 pins the 144V and the other as the latch for a 12V relay latch or something like that, maybe even just a ground path to trigger a closed 144V circuit. Then the charger side of the socket plug having obviously the 144V but then the other two pins looped.

The only time the socket will be at 144V will be when the charger is plugged in, but at that point you cant poke anything in it as the charger is there.

Also- Id like one please
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:40 AM   #182 (permalink)
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Johhny No, the charge socket is always cold when the charger is not plugged in and switched on as it has two diodes at the battery terminals which only allow power into the battery from the charger not out again to the socket. You can poke about with the terminals in the socket if you wish but I don't recommend it!
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:13 AM   #183 (permalink)
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It would be possible to add a nice 500ma led meter to the charger using a cheap dc-dc converter but not whilst the dc-dc is also powering the battery fan. Thoughts?

The meter would add about £10.00 to the price.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:31 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Since the charger will only be used when the car is powered off, and the 12V fan dc/dc is also isolated, one should be able to tie the charger negative to the 12V negative, and power both the fan and LCD meter.
I caan see the approximate current by watching the 1W led that is in series with the charger.Since I stay in constant current throughout the process, the led is simply charge no charge feedback.
I was under the impression that you were not using a 12V supply and were not running the battery cooling fan with your resistor based design?
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:38 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Ron has asked be for a variation with an output to drive the fan which I am looking at.

I have also acquired 100 x 48v to 5v dc-dc converters which could drive the battery fan at 5v for silent cooling (it works down to 3.5v I tested it) and or the led meter as well.

The isolated dc-dc would work off one of the 48v supplies.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:41 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Default Fan + pack voltages

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I have also acquired 100 x 48v to 5v dc-dc converters which could drive the battery fan at 5v for silent cooling (it works down to 3.5v I tested it) and or the led meter as well.
I've run a Molex-ended pack and fan tap for once the power supplies arrive, and run a second from that to the console so I can check voltages as I drive if I wish (the cupholders are perfect for VOMs). The fan seems to start out at about 3 - 3.5V, then go to about 7V and then about 13V as it warms up will full assist up a long hill etc. (At full fan voltage I put a hand back to the vent a couple times and felt essentially nothing; having a fan rated for 0.6A at 12V seems a bit weak for keeping the pack cool at ~14kW out/~7kW in IMHO.)

A full SOC (meaning full minus 1 bar) roughly corresponds to 158V, gradually dipping down to around 128 under sustained full assist. I saw 175V or so under mostly sustained regen; 180V from sustained full regen would seemingly be likely.

I also noticed the more powerful blower for the DC-DC and invertor appears to get its air from one frame rail, and deposit in the other. Makes sense actually. Didn't see anything resembling a filter housing though so I suspect dust/grime buildup on the heat exchangers over time is likely.

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Old 09-04-2009, 12:30 AM   #187 (permalink)
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Quote:
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having a fan rated for 0.6A at 12V seems a bit weak for keeping the pack cool at ~14kW out/~7kW in IMHO.)
At 9V the fan will adequately cool the pack during a 10amp (1.5C) charge. By adequately, I mean less than 5 degrees F rise over ambient temperature. It is more than capable of cooling the pack.


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A full SOC (meaning full minus 1 bar) roughly corresponds to 158V, gradually dipping down to around 128 under sustained full assist. I saw 175V or so under mostly sustained regen; 180V from sustained full regen would seemingly be likely.
Remember that voltage cannot be used to accurately measure the SOC of NiMH batteries.
If it were, then full would be 168V, empty would be 108V and the 20% and 80% marks would be at 120V and 156V.



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Didn't see anything resembling a filter housing though so I suspect dust/grime buildup on the heat exchangers over time is likely.
The battery sticks in some cars are quite grimy compared to those in others. I'm starting to ask customers if they are smokers to determine if this is the reason. I often have black hands after swapping out sticks.

The first column of sticks have a plastic sleeve, presumably to protect against airborne grit tearing at the shrink tubing. These white sleeves are often dingy gray from the grime buildup.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:11 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Default Fan + pack voltages

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At 9V the fan will adequately cool the pack during a 10amp (1.5C) charge. By adequately, I mean less than 5 degrees F rise over ambient temperature. It is more than capable of cooling the pack.
I guess I'm being paranoid then. Ok, excellent.

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Remember that voltage cannot be used to accurately measure the SOC of NiMH batteries.
Oh yes, I understand that. That has been very thoroughly explained to me, and I've read about it in a book I got on battery technology. I understand the SOC is determined by tracking energy in vs. energy out... That's why the SOC is (short-term) unaffected by transient voltage changes from heavy assist and regen.

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... The battery sticks in some cars are quite grimy compared to those in others. I'm starting to ask customers if they are smokers to determine if this is the reason. I often have black hands after swapping out sticks.

The first column of sticks have a plastic sleeve, presumably to protect against airborne grit tearing at the shrink tubing. These white sleeves are often dingy gray from the grime buildup.
It would just keep building up on them I suppose, w/o direct help from the cabin air filter. Fun. Ever seen road grime buildup on the invertor and/or DC-DC heat exchangers, or have you never had the opportunity/need to open up one of those assemblies?

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Old 09-04-2009, 11:15 AM   #189 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=crx_rogus;148188It would just keep building up on them I suppose, w/o direct help from the cabin air filter. Fun. Ever seen road grime buildup on the invertor and/or DC-DC heat exchangers, or have you never had the opportunity/need to open up one of those assemblies?[/QUOTE]

I think a grimy battery is preferable to a clogged filter that then causes a failure...

No, I haven't opened up a PCU. That's actually a good thing - they don't go bad. I have one here if you REALLY need to know how dirty they get.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:14 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Well thanks to Seb & Art who acted as guinea pigs, and bought my first two prototype chargers I have put my money where my mouth is, and ordered 100 power supplies from China last week.
This guinea pig finally had the time to install the charger leads in the IMA battery compartment following Peter's instructions. I would like to report on my experience.

I had no way to drill the 18 mm. hole necessary to mount the charger socket. Peter suggested a step drill bit. I found an 8 - 20 mm step drill bit ("stegborr" in Swedish) that worked perfectly. The first attachment shows this bit and the location of the socket hole which I located lower and more to the left than in the photo in Peter's instructions. I wanted this socket to be as accessible as possible which I think my low left location accomplishes.

As Peter's instructions suggest, connecting the charger lead to the resistor was the most difficult step. I found that detaching the large orange positive and negative leads improved the difficult access somewhat. The second attachment shows my Insight Service Manual being put to good use holding the stiff leads bent back out of the way.

I had a very difficult time unplugging the existing lead from the resistor. I finally approached it from between the seats of my Insight which provided better access than from the rear of the car. The pip/button that must be pressed to release the plug is difficult to press while wearing a rubber glove on one's hand. The pressable portion of this button is on the wire end of the plug. The unpressable portion is on the open end of the plug. So if one tries to press the entire raised area, the pressable portion of the button may not be pressed sufficiently. So one needs to concentrate on pressing the raised area just on the wire end, not on the open end.

Another problem I had was plugging the existing plug into the spade on the piggy-back connector after I had plugged the piggy-back connector into the spade on the resistor. The piggy-back connector spade would bend when I tried to plug in the existing plug. I was afraid that multiple attempts might break the spade off the piggy-back connector. So I unplugged the piggy-back connector from the resistor, plugged in the existing plug to the piggy-back connector first, and then plugged the piggy-back connector into the resistor spade.

The third and fourth attachments show the routing of the charger leads near both ends. I attached these leads to a couple of locations using plastic ties and routed the leads in front of an aluminum beam that runs across the bottom of the battery compartment. The leads seem free to move in this location, so I don't believe that they are being pinched.

The final attachment shows the socket access after the battery compartment has been closed. It should be easy to plug in the charger without standing on one's head to see the socket or without trying to plug it in by feel.

I haven't tried charging my battery yet because my car will remain parked until Sweden feels that they have enough info to allow me to drive to their import inspector. Today, I had to buy a 90-day insurance policy for over $200 even though I already had a 30-day insurance policy for which I paid Swedish Customs about $125! The first insurance policy covered me on my 50-mile drive from the port to my apartment. The second policy will cover my two trips of less than 5 miles each between my apartment and the inspector. I cannot drive anywhere else. Jeez! After I have made an appointment with this inspector, I will charge my battery the day before my appointment.

The charger prototype that I have is a black box in more than one way. There's really no way to determine whether charging current is actually flowing into my battery. I wish this charger had an ammeter so that I could monitor the charging process instead of merely assuming that after 24 hours of charging that the process had completed. I'm hopeful that such an improvement will be tested and approved so that I can retrofit my charger.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Step Drill Bit.jpg (44.5 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Lead Attachments.jpg (67.5 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg Lead Routing Start.jpg (49.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg Lead Routing End.jpg (52.1 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg Socket Access.jpg (42.6 KB, 43 views)
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