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Old 06-22-2010, 09:38 AM   #531 (permalink)
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Ok, you are using the caps capacitive reactance to limit the current on the ac side. That works.
The LED and fixed supplies is a bit simpler but I can see that what you have should work well.
I like the way you use a magic marker for your front panel graphics, I did the same on the big charger.
I built the PTC circuit onto a perfboard last night,and will finish connecting the relay and circuit to the big charger after my morning e-mail check.
Ron is coming up, to pick it up as I write this, so we will be testing it on a spare Insight pack.
Will snap a few photos of the test.
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Mima # 007 Insight 2000 5sp AC
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:11 PM   #532 (permalink)
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Test went well, I had to add some hysteresis to the voltage comparator so it would switch off the big CC supplies cleanly, as it would buzz for a second or two right at the switch point.
Other than that everything worked well. The PTC strip temp safety worked well, We hacked up an old BCM to get the male pin side of the PTC connector. We set the shutdown at 600 ohms, and the warning at ~50. Each of the setpoints is easily monitored and adjusted, so Ron will tune it after watching several packs
The pack I was testing on was pretty full, so the pack voltage went from a starting value of 155V to 170V in only a couple of minutes. Ron will give it a better test tomorrow.
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Mima # 007 Insight 2000 5sp AC
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Universal grid charger
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:01 AM   #533 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dabrowski 2000 View Post
The insight PTC strip interface to the BCM has~ a 2.5K input impedance when the car is off, this parallel resistance will simply change the resistance slope as the PTC ramps up. That change in slope will not effect the ability to set an accurate shut down point. An op amp comparator can have better than 1 ohm accuracy, so I will simply tap the PTC plugged in, and go from there.
PTC strip auto charger shutdown circuit works well. Here is the schematic and photo of the bread boardcircuit.
two setpoints allow a warning and a shutdown setpoint. Total circuit should cost less than $5
MIMA Honda Insight Modified Integrated Motor Assist - PTC strip monitor and charger shutdown circuit
OK, I'll try to understand how this part of it all works....

Hope you don't mind me asking a few questions, I'm a newbie to op-amps and have just figured out that the four "triangles" in the circuit diagram actually represent the same device - just showing it's various pins in four parts instead of in a single position. That's how new I am to it all....

But why is there an electrolytic capacitor on the breadboard and not on the circuit diagram?

And is it correct to say that "upper setpoint", "PTC voltage" and "lower setpoint" are just labels to explain the circuit, rather than actual connections to components?

Now I'm off to find a spec sheet for the LM324 - need to figure out what it can do!

PS: How did you add hysteresis?

Mik
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:16 AM   #534 (permalink)
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Op amps are analog computers, and were the way computing was done in the days before digital logic .
They can add, subtract, multiply, divide,and a slew of other cool functions including this comparator circuit.
I learned about them when working at a company that used them for signal conditioning of their level gauges for ships and big tanks.

The triangle has a + and - input. The op amp is a high gain analog amplifier. The LM324 has an open loop gain of over 1 million, so the difference between the + and - inputs is amplified by a million, so only a few microvolts of difference between the + and - inputs will make the output shoot to either the positive or ground level. In the comparator, we want this so the op amp acts like a switch when one voltage exceeds the other. In the circuit, the PTC voltage will be less than the setpoint so the output will hit the + rail voltage and be high until the PTC voltage is equal to the setpoint, but right when they are in the zone where the difference in voltage even with the million amplification falls below the + rail, the circuit will amplify any 60 HZ noise riding on the signals by the same million and you would see a big sine wave on the output, which makes it buzz.
A high value resistor( 4.7Meg) between the output and positive input, giver the circuit some hysteresis.
The way that works is when the output is high, the 4.7M pulls the + input slightly higher than the setpoint, so the PTC voltage has to climb just a millivolt or two higher than the actual setpoint before the output starts to fall.
Once the output starts to fall for the first time, the pull up from the output through the 4.7M resistor reduces and this drops the + input voltage.
This drop in the + input voltage, increases the difference between the + and - input, and this further reduces the effective setpoint voltage, rapidly shooting the output to the ground rail, where the feedback through the 4.7M now is now pulling the + input down further than the actual setpoint, firmly switching the output off. A fast positive switching action on the first near match of the PTC voltage and the set voltage.
The same thing happens as the PTC drops below the now pulled down setpoint, this causes a nice clean turn on of the output.
The digital circuits with Schmidt trigger inputs work the same way

The ratio of the 10K input resistor to the 4.7M feedback resistor determines the size of the hysteresis. Less feedback (higher feedback resistance) and you get a smaller hysteresis band, lower feedback resistance, and you get a bigger band.
There are hundreds of usefull op amp circuits that can be made with the exact same part, and there are thousands of types of op amps available.
I always keep 50 or more in my parts bins, and use them when I don't want to deal with writing a program for a micro controller, and want a simple to understand circuit that anyone can duplicate.

With negative feedback, the gain can be controlled from 1 to the full gain of over a million as used in the comparator, and anywhere in between. The potentiometers are fed into two op amps set up as unity gain buffers, The input impedance is well over a megohm, and the output can drive a 25MA load.
Get some LM324's and play with them. There are tons of circuits available online that show the many possibilities that op amps bring.
New schematic with hysteresis and explanation.
http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...gersafety2.pdf
Data sheet with example circuits for the LM 124,224,324 op amps:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM124.pdf

Have fun
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Mima # 007 Insight 2000 5sp AC
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Last edited by Mike Dabrowski 2000; 06-24-2010 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:52 PM   #535 (permalink)
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Default Grid Charger Balancer

Hi there, Mike. Any new news on your progress with creating a grid charger balancer for sale? Been reading this thread with interest.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:30 AM   #536 (permalink)
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I wish I could say how many do you want,I will ship them tomorrow, but I want to do this right, and make something that will be safe to connect and use, and still be reasonable in price, and something I can build efficiently.

I spent the last week building a big version of the dual rate overnight charger.
MIMA Honda Insight Modified Integrated Motor Assist - building it bigger 4.5A

The project is both a way for Ron to get a tool that he needs, and a way for me to explore the possibilities find the areas where I need to be careful, and prototype some of the control and instrumentation that will be required for the smaller version.
All steps leading to the final solution.

This project needs to share time with spot welder design and construction, cell tester design and construction, and the occasional MIMA system, as well as shopping lawn mowing and all of the other time sinks in life.
I hope to get it all sorted out soon, as I have the pile of power supplies that are all paid for and waiting to become grid chargers.
Too Many Projects Not Enough Time
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Last edited by Mike Dabrowski 2000; 06-24-2010 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:19 AM   #537 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dabrowski 2000 View Post
Op amps are analog computers, and were the way computing was done in the days before digital logic .
They can add, subtract, multiply, divide,and a slew of other cool functions including this comparator circuit.
I learned about them when working at a company that used them for signal conditioning of their level gauges for ships and big tanks....
...
...
Have fun
Thanks for the explanations!

I'm onto it, bought 10 of the little critters (LM324N).

Very versatile devices indeed!

Mik
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:33 PM   #538 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mik View Post
Thanks for the explanations!

I'm onto it, bought 10 of the little critters (LM324N).

Very versatile devices indeed!

Mik
I got it going on a breadboard!

Exiting!

The LM324 is just powerful enough to operate a relay that I already had lying around, 5V coil, 16A @277V AC.

That will make the Special Freddy Prius charger much more reliable and "simpler". I'm in the process of growing a bunch of new synapses to use for understanding op-amps.....very confusing at this stage, but every now and then I understand some of it. It took a couple of hours of fiddling with the breadboard, but now it works.

Thanks again!
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:25 PM   #539 (permalink)
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MR MIK
This document:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM124.pdf
Page 9 Power Amplifier: shows how to use an NPN power transistor to drive high side big loads with an op amp.
Lamp driver page 10 shows a low side switch


Also you want to put a diode across the relay coil to prevent the inductive flyback pulse from blowing the transistor or op amp.
have fun, it is a very versatile circuit.

I sheared enough chassis to make 5 of the 350ma universal chargers, and 7 of the overnight chargers.
Also started setting up the microcontroller.
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Mima # 007 Insight 2000 5sp AC
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Universal grid charger
http://99mpg.com/Projectcars/gridcharger/
http://www.99mpg.com/

Last edited by Mike Dabrowski 2000; 06-28-2010 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:58 PM   #540 (permalink)
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i need to go back to school for eletrical engineering so i can understand more of this talk thats going on. im just lurking back in the shadows waiting for the final product so that i can buy one of these.
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