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Old 08-23-2009, 09:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Waste Recovery ideas

I've been looking into and continuing to try and learn more about some of the methods of waste recovery from the ICE.

I wanted to touch base with the community about some of these ideas ... to share some of the bits I have gathered ... and to see what I can learn from the knowledge base of others.

Cost is prohibitive which is why it isn't done today... so at this point this is mainly just a thought experiment / discussion.

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Even our Insight engines at peak efficiency convert / make use of less than 50% or 1/2 of the energy consumed from the gasoline. more than 50% of the energy of the Gasoline is pumped unused out the radiator and the exhaust... when our engines are further from peak efficiency they waste even more.

Of course our engine and parts still need to be cooled and waste gasses need removed ... so these functions will still need to be done... but can we recovery some of that currently wasted energy?... if we can what are some different methods to do so... and how much might we be able to recover?

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Option #1> Turbo-Generator:
The turbine that spins from the exhaust is converted to electrical energy.

TIGERS was developed and tested back in 2005.

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Option #2> Thermo-Electric Exhaust:
Using Thermo-Electric modules in the exhaust stream to convert some of the energy in the temperature difference between the exhaust gasses and ambient into electrical power.

BSST was prototyped by in 2004 ... modern TE modules are only a bit more than ~5% efficient.

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Option #3> Thermo-Electric Radiator:
Using Thermo-Electric Modules in the radiator system ... the dT is smaller than the exhaust but is still significantly above ambient.

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Option #4> Meredith Effect Radiator:
First seen accidentally in the design of the Mustangs radiator system... A radiator in order to have air flow for it to be able to function also introduced aerodynamic drag... A jet engine makes use of air expanding when it is heated ( usually by burning a fuel ) in order to create thrust... The radiator in the Mustang was discovered to be using the engine's waste heat to heat the air causing it to expand ... this air heating will produce thrust when the design is shaped correctly ... when discovered it was named the 'Meredith Effect' ... sense the radiator system is needed anyway to cool the ICE... designing a radiator to put the waste heat into creating thrust is a method of trying to recover some of the aerodynamics lost in order to have the air flow for the radiator system.

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Option #5> Combine 1 , 2 ,3 , & 4:

The air comes in ... A Thero-Electric Radiator system converts some heat energy into electrical power ... this radiator heats the air in a Meredith Effect designed radiator ... The hot exhaust gasses exit the ICE and enter the Mederdith Effect designed radiator as an additional heat and air pressure source ... A Turbo-Generator or turbine on this heated and pressurized air stream converts some of this thrust into electrical power ... a Thermo-Electric Exhaust system converts some of the reaming heat dT with ambient into electrical power.

I suspect it might be possible to recover up to ~25% of the wasted energy between the Radiator and the Exhaust system... this would be more than ~25% of the energy that currently gets converted to a usable form from the gasoline... which might equate to ~25% increases in MPG / FE ... if you get 60MPG now driven the same way you would get 75MPG or more...

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Synergy with other systems:
Because the generated electrical power might not always be needed immediately... having a larger battery pack would be useful in order to store it from time to time... this larger battery pack combined with MIMA already gives PHEV MPG benefits by offsetting some gasoline with electrical energy from the grid... but the additional storage benefits the waste recovery ... and the ability to control desired Assist would be very useful for for being able to use the extra electrical energy being generated in the waste recovery system.
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Old 08-23-2009, 09:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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All interesting stuff Ian.

I have found that the radiator when driving in eco mode has very little excess heat available, expecially in cold weather, the thermostat barely opens, and if the cabin heater is used the engine can only just keep up to normal operating temp. So not a lot of energy there when driving economically with current setup IMO. The block disipates quite a bit of the limited heat available so some sort of all enclosing inuslation to allow the heat otherwise lost to be channeled into the water is reqd. That chap did the insight engine blanket a while back, haven't heard any more since then.

The exhaust gases I agree have potential for some form of electrical generating turbo or heat to electric devices. Extracting heat out of the gases may be an issue with the Insight Catalytic converters , but extracting mechanical energy may be OK.

We need a nice high powered PM motor welded onto a turbo spindle to start playing with!
I know < zero about reluctance motors.

How many shaft hp does a small turbo develop?

A quick look on e-bay for "thermoelectric" brings up quite a nice selection of modules.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lot-of-5-X-136...mZ390084965194

Quite an intersting article but no mention of power generation properties.

http://pcbheaven.com/wikipages/The_P...hermo-Element/

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Old 08-24-2009, 10:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Something I've considered is how to use the heat that emanates from around the exhaust while the engine is running, as there's plenty there that could be made use of. Organic rankine cycle and generator would be my favourite option but would be a heck of a DIY job!

So I've been thinking about more simple ideas, and in particular stuff that could be achieved easily at DIY level. One option could be to use the heat to dehumidify the car to avoid misted up windows (a lot of air conditioning energy is used in some climates to demist the windows in the morning). I think that simply exposing the cabin air to a cannister of moisture absorbing crystals, such as CuSO4, could be used to absorb any moisture in the cabin air overnight (by passive diffusion, not by fan). The cannister would be placed around the exhaust and would be "recharged" each time the car is driven by the exhaust heat, venting the captured moisture outside by wax thermostat controlled valve.

Alternatively on the same principle, perhaps a heat absorbing chemical reaction could be used to harvest some waste exhaust heat? An example would be those glove warmers that you can "recharge" at home in the oven. Once they are recharged, they might be somehow useful at home, such as helping to heat the house or hot water? To be honest it might just be easier to place heat-storage bricks around the exhaust for the same effect!
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Just for fun I made a crude picture of the concept ... see attached bellow... more than 50% of the energy content of our fuel is going out via these waste routes.

If ever win the lottery or become a multimillionaire some other way ... I'll be sure to build it up and post the results ... in the mean time ... it's just in fun.
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File Type: jpg AumotiveMeredithEffectICE.JPG (63.8 KB, 19 views)
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I only recently read about the TIGERS system, and I want one! It would be amazing to have such a large percentage of full assist come from the TIGERS system when you floor it.. lol.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli View Post
I only recently read about the TIGERS system, and I want one! It would be amazing to have such a large percentage of full assist come from the TIGERS system when you floor it.. lol.
Another similar company / product ... a Turbo-Alternator ... there is a company that has been doing it sense 1980's ... who knew?

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Old 12-16-2011, 08:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of the ice?


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Old 12-16-2011, 08:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of the ice?
Easier and cheaper I suspect.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of the ice?


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Not unless you've got a way to store 36kWh of electrical energy in a container the size of a gallon of gasoline.

Edit: Oh, I thought he meant in general, not in regards to one specific idea.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Only 36,000 watts?


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