Adding Enginer PHEV system.

[ericbecky]

I want make it clear that the reason for adding the additional batteries does not involve saving money. I'm doing it simply because it seems like a fun thing to do. There are less expensive ways to add battery capacity, and even then I think the savings, if any, are negligible.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by retepsnikrep

I think 400lbs in the back also means bent rear trailing arms if I remember Mike's experience correctly!!

My 40ah pack weighs about 175lbs.

Yeah, but not in a Prius. I don't think you could fit 400 lbs of batteries into an Insight.

40Ah at what voltage? That's why I listed KWH. An Insight pack is 0.94 KWH.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by MN Driver

Why do I feel the sudden urge to make a trip to the yards before the price of packs suddenly go up?

They've already gone up because of me. You used to be able to get an Insight pack for $500 and a Civic pack for $250. No longer.

[retepsnikrep]

Originally Posted by Hybrid-Battery-Repair

40Ah at what voltage?

40ah at about 165v nominal. I have about 6.4kwh capacity.

[uhtrinity]

Originally Posted by MN Driver

Why do I feel the sudden urge to make a trip to the yards before the price of packs suddenly go up?

They already went up. Based on that I was considering a tri parallel Prius based pack, but decided against since they wouldn't all fit in the stock location.

6kW/hrs would work out 6 stock packs parralled and would take up a lot of space. I'm curious to see what you are working on.

[uhtrinity]

Originally Posted by ericbecky

Hi guys,
Well, I've decided to put in an Enginer PHEV system into my Insight.
(See Enginer | Prius Plugin PHEV Conversion Kit with Lithium-Ion | Hybrid for info on their Prius system.)

About my Insight.
- 2002
- 5 speed
- 120,000 miles.
- MIMA system with two joysticks (This is the second gen MIMA system with the pull pin, insert tap system)

I plan on adding 2KWH of Lithium batteries (LiFePO4)

Looking at others PHEV systems it would appear that I will most likely need to remove my spare in order to have room to install the batteries and keep them "below deck".

I installed MIMA myself and I'll be doing this install myself as well.
I have helped with 5 other Enginer installs in Prius, but this will be the first in an Insight.

Since the Insight has a bit less room below deck than a Prius I will probably need to move some components around. My initial idea is to put the battery under the storage pocket, mount the converter in the storage bin and the charger on the side space. I am interested in creating a battery box too.

Once I have the components I can start trying out some placement ideas.

I read through the entire thread about retepsnikrep's PHEV system and mine will not be nearly as powerful or complex.
For example, I don't think I'll need to open the OEM battery module.

At first blush it seems like I may be able to connect via the output terminals of the OEM battery module.

I look forward to hearing other's input and any other links to threads here on IC you think are pertinent regarding this PHEV conversion.


* * * * * *
Other details about the kit (taken from Dan Kroushl's summary on PriusChat.)
Battery Charger
Input 99-121VAC, 45-63Hz / Output 58.2VDC @ 15A
Efficiency = To be determined
Dimensions 8.0 x 5.38 x 2.75
Weight = 4.3 lb

DC/DC Converter
48-240V 3000W, Output does not appear to be adjustable
Efficiency = To be determined
Dimensions 18.75 x 6.88 x 2.75
Weight = 13.0 lb

Cell Balancers
Chargery DB8 Smart Digital Balancer
- Battery Types: LiPo and LiFe cells
- Cells Monitoring : up to 8
- Displays cell voltage, pack voltage and voltage differential
- Current drain for balancing: 300mA/cell.
- Balance accuracy: <10mv
- Over Charge Protection : 4.22V/cell (LiPo), 3.75V/cell(LiFe)
- Low voltage alarm: 3.00V/cell (LiPo), 2.80V/cell(LiFe)
- Voltage display resolution: 0.001V
- Voltage Detection precision: 0.005V
- Dimensions: 4.52” x 2.67” x 0.59”
- Weight:150g
When connected to a set of 8 batteries, the DB8 will lower the voltage of seven cells to the level of the lowest (eighth) cell. It will perform balancing while charging, idle and discharging. It can discharge 7.2Ah per cell per day. Two DB8's are required for a 2kWh kit.

I hope this system will run in the operational voltage range of the Insight as the prius runs at a voltage approx 50% higher. I would also be wary of connecting it with the stock battery as differing paralleled battery chemistries might not get along. Is this set up for the Insight? How will the battery talk to the bcm or are the voltage values the bcm expects being spoofed?

[linkrod]

The Prius enginer Kit is fundamentally a OEM battery charging system. It grid charges the LeFiPO4 batteries to a output of 48VDC@40AH, then thru a DC/DC (constant voltage current limiting device) discharges the LeFiPO4 batteries into the OEM battery. There is no direct OEM battery to PHEV battery connection. The LeFiPO4 batteries deplete at constant rate until empty. The output voltage of the DC/DC converter is 240VDC at 12A (approx 3000W). I have some concern that the LeFiPO4 batteries with a 2KW charge could potentially overcharge the OEM battery. One must keep a keen eye on the state of charge on the OEM battery when discharging from the LeFiPO4 at a constant voltage of 240V. The Prius battery full charged voltage should be in the neighborhood of 235 VDC. Thought I might add these comments, they are based on my review of the very limited info on his Kit. I own a Prius and a Insight.

[MN Driver]

Originally Posted by uhtrinity

They already went up. Based on that I was considering a tri parallel Prius based pack, but decided against since they wouldn't all fit in the stock location.

6kW/hrs would work out 6 stock packs parralled and would take up a lot of space. I'm curious to see what you are working on.

That would be cool to see a triple parallel Prius pack, the Priuschat forum seems to have quite a few people saying that the Gen II Prius has a very robust battery, with the Gen I pack being pretty good but they are very rare and price for the Prius Gen I packs are climbing quickly, although it seems difficult to find many people running their Priuses more than 200k miles on that forum when 200k+ on an Insight is much more easy to come across here.

The only concern I'd have is the internal pressure issues and how to monitor the charging because apparently the deltaV end of charge detection is difficult and overcharging causes bulging of the plastic cells. It almost seems like the only way to do it outside of a Prius is in a special purpose-built clamp one 6 cell module at a time. ...I could be wrong though, I haven't researched it too much but couldn't find anyone making a cheap extended out of a parallel pack on the Prius like you have either.

---Now to get back on topic---

Originally Posted by uhtrinity

I hope this system will run in the operational voltage range of the Insight as the prius runs at a voltage approx 50% higher. I would also be wary of connecting it with the stock battery as differing paralleled battery chemistries might not get along. Is this set up for the Insight? How will the battery talk to the bcm or are the voltage values the bcm expects being spoofed?

From what I understand the Enginer kit is a 48 volt LiFePo4 pack that connects to the Prius HV NiMH pack using an adjustable(which is what I thought I read on their site but then above in this forum post it says it's not adjustable which might add challenges to this) 3000 watt peak DC-DC convertor. This design makes it one of the most basic PHEV Prius pack there is because the others force Prius EV mode by pushing a modified CAN signal saying the battery is full and pushes its electric power plant to the max. In simplified theory you would think you could just adjust the max voltage and current and the Enginer syste, would work, but from Mike D's testing this would have to basically have to be setup to mimic what he did with the pack cutting off when the IMA is at idle and might require a MIMA or otherwise some manual work to engage and disengage it to prevent an IMA disable when it tries to detect 'no current' at idle and kicks a code.

[retepsnikrep]

I charge my lifepo4 battery to 180V. Which is also about the max for the standard nimh pack. If you go much above this then the car throws an Over V code.

The first hurdle I see is can the output from this dc-dc system deliver the 160-180V reqd for charging the standard Insight nimh pack or is it only set up for the prius higher voltages?

I imagine 3kw into 170v say would give about 16-17A or so which is not a bad charge rate.

[MN Driver]

Linkrod contributed some good points which were posted while I was typing my bit of what I understood from the site, I did repeat a few things that were said but I didn't know they were coming. There are a few chin-scratching moments I had while reading the site as I ran across a few grammar issues and other, what could be minor or major, mistakes of how things were written in the site. I think something states the mileage of the smaller pack to be twice of what it said in another place if I was looking at the FAQ right and the eBay page that they sell the kit had me a little leary. ...Then again I'm very careful when it comes to spending a few grand and want to know exactly what I'm getting before I jump in.

The constant current until the pack is dry or until it hits 240 volts wouldn't be good news for the Insight pack, you would pretty much need to have manual control and monitoring to see where the Insight pack is and likely engage MIMA to match or use slightly more power than what the booster pack is able to provide. At 144 volts, it would be nearly 21 amps which could improve gas mileage quite a bit from what retepsnikrep's experience with his PHEV, less amperage would be provided(if everything else is equal and it continues to provide 3000 watts) at higher voltages.

In the end I see this looking like Mike D's setup with the DC-DC convertor with a vague touch of the Retepsnikrep plan considering that it uses 40ah LiFePo4 batteries but less of them. Having less cells makes charging and balancing much easier to put together in initial setup, which with this kit, should have things ready to go from the start, at least for balancing and charging the pack.

It seems to me this will require 1. Patience 2. MIMA(or some other method of manual control to prevent it from giving you a code during 'no current' times and to force the appropriate assist. 3. Some sort of safety control to prevent overcharge of the lower voltage NiMH pack in the Insight. 4. A healthy Insight pack

Best of luck! In the end it seems this should provide more benefit to the Insight than it would to the Prius once everything gets sorted out.