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Old 12-16-2009, 06:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question IMA battery repair question

This is my first post, so Hi everybody
I have a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid with 125k miles on it. I am not the original owner of the car so I do not have much information about its history. I know this is an Insight forum, but HCH II seems to have a similar technology anyway.
The car runs great, but I started to notice some wild SoC fluctuation recently. Then I finally got the IMA check engine light. I have not checked the error code but I am assuming that sooner or later I will need to replace/rebuild the battery.
My car is a US import. I live in Jordan. I wish I could send the battery to Hybrid-Battery-Repair but I am anticipating a hefty shipping cost. I do not think that is a viable option. The local Honda dealers here are clueless about the hybrid technology and they are usually extremely expensive so that option is not a viable option either. I think the only financially feasible option is to repair the battery myself. I feel comfortable doing that.
I read a lot of posts and articles here and on other websites. I am very thankful to the level of details that is being discussed here by members like JimIsBell and IamIan and Hybrid-Battery-Repair ...etc. I am sure I did not mention some other very well knowledgeable people here.
Let me get down to the issue. What do I need to repair the battery?
-I understood that something like CBA battery analyzer is good.
-I need a charger/discharger.
-I have a multi-meter and the necessary wrenches and .... etc.
-I feel comfortable dealing with the high voltage.
-Can I buy the sub-packs from somewhere? How much do they cost? and where? I do not think I can find them here in Jordan. Of course I understand that I should pay for the extra shipping cost.
-What is the best charge/discharge current?
The cost is a real issue ATM. Do I need both the CBA analyzer and the charger/discharger? I found many chargers/dischargers on eBay. I can get a friend to ship it to me. The charger cost ranges from $35 to $200+. What do I need to exactly look for? 5A+? 10A? 6+ cells balance support? what else?
I do not want to spend more than three weeks at most doing this job. Although the money is an issue, but the time is a more important issue. Is it better to get one good charger/balancer? or maybe multiple cheap chargers/balancers? Maybe instead of asking about what I should get I should say: what should I avoid?

Are there any serious differences between working with an Insight battery and HCH II battery?
Anything else I need to know before I get started?
Can I drive the car during this three weeks period without the IMA battery installed?

Edit:
Which one is better?
Robitronic – Overloader 2 or DuraTrax DTXP4170 IntelliPeak ICE?
RCeasy » Robitronic – Overloader 2
DuraTrax® IntelliPeak ICE Charger | 88X

Last edited by Shorman; 12-16-2009 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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#1> Top most important thing... take your time and be safe... if you have doubts... don't do it.

Minimum equipment:

#A>
Battery Charge/Discharger that has to be able to correctly do the following:
#1> 6 cells of NiMH
#2> At least 6Ah of battery capacity
#3> Must count Ah on the discharge cycle

#B>
Volt Meter 0VDC to 200VDC

#C>
Direction to swap IMA battery
They are inside the Shop Service manual.

#D>
Tools to Swap IMA battery:
Screw driver... Metric Socket set.

------------

That the minimum... other options are nice and can make your life easier... but that would be the minimum.

------------

If you need replacement sticks ... you are either looking at junk yard packs... that you will have to open up and test... or you can talk to Ron about buying some he has already tested for you.

------------

Best of luck no matter what you do... but be safe and take your time.

------------

Before you get too far into investing in doing it yourself ... you might want to at least touch base with Ron at Hybrid-Battery-Repair and see what you're looking at for him.

At least then you better know what your options are.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thank you for the advice.
What are the best charge/discharge currents values? what values give the best reconditioning result? are there any advantages or disadvantages here other than the time?
I will appreciate it if you give a feedback about the last question in my original post
Quote:
Which one is better?
Robitronic – Overloader 2 or DuraTrax DTXP4170 IntelliPeak ICE?
RCeasy » Robitronic – Overloader 2
DuraTrax® IntelliPeak ICE Charger | 88X
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Civic battery

Contact your Dealer and ask for the Price of the new Battery. You may be suprised.

The Civic battery is a lot less money than the Insight.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:26 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Minimum Equipment/Ideal

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
#1> Top most important thing... take your time and be safe... if you have doubts... don't do it.

Minimum equipment:

#A>
Battery Charge/Discharger that has to be able to correctly do the following:
#1> 6 cells of NiMH
#2> At least 6Ah of battery capacity
#3> Must count Ah on the discharge cycle

#B>
Volt Meter 0VDC to 200VDC

#C>
Direction to swap IMA battery
They are inside the Shop Service manual.

#D>
Tools to Swap IMA battery:
Screw driver... Metric Socket set.

------------

That the minimum... other options are nice and can make your life easier... but that would be the minimum.

------------

If you need replacement sticks ... you are either looking at junk yard packs... that you will have to open up and test... or you can talk to Ron about buying some he has already tested for you.

------------

Best of luck no matter what you do... but be safe and take your time.

------------

Before you get too far into investing in doing it yourself ... you might want to at least touch base with Ron at Hybrid-Battery-Repair and see what you're looking at for him.

At least then you better know what your options are.
If you have only one charger, then it will take most of 10 days to cycle all 20 sticks.

You really need 2 as a minimum to cycle 2 sticks at a time.

Try Ebay and find some Robitronics Overloader chargers, they are fairly cheap at the moment as the R/C enthusiasts are disposing of them due to Lipo technology.

You will also need DC power suplies to drive the Chargers.

I paid £100 for two used Robitronics units from Ebay and £90 for a pair of new 7 Amp 12V DC supplies from an electronics shop to give you an idea of the setup costs.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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M,

Thanks for contacting me privately. You MUST get the error codes so that we can help with the repair. Common codes that you are looking for are P0A7F, P1446, P1570, etc.

In answer to some of your questions:

The Gen 1 Hondas (2000-2006 Insight and 2003-2005 Civic Hybrids) used identical battery subpacks inside very similar housings. Your 2006 uses a totally new pack.

It is smaller:

It has 22 sticks instead of 20:

And the sticks are physically different. Here is a picture of a Gen 1 stick (yellow) with Gen 2 stick pairs:

The subpacks are pairs of sticks that are welded together on the far end. They are also about 1/2" longer.

Despite this, they are basically the same electronically, and suffer the same problems and respond to the same treatment as the Gen 1 sticks do.

Where can you get them? I sell them. They cost $125 per pair. Shipping weight is about 6lbs per pair. Customs/duty is paid by you.

-I understood that something like CBA battery analyzer is good.
But it won't buy you anything over the Duratrax/Robitronic/Team Checkpoint unless you get a 10x amplifier for it (at $600 above the cost of the CBA alone).


-I need a charger/discharger.
Yes.


-I have a multi-meter and the necessary wrenches and .... etc.
10MM, 12MM and Torx T30.


-What is the best charge/discharge current?
With a fan: 5A for a 12 stick pack.
Without a fan? 2A max


The cost is a real issue ATM. Do I need both the CBA analyzer and the charger/discharger?
No.


I found many chargers/dischargers on eBay. I can get a friend to ship it to me. The charger cost ranges from $35 to $200+. What do I need to exactly look for? 5A+? 10A? 6+ cells balance support?
Balance support is for Lithium cells. This is NiMH. You need it to support 12 cells.


I do not want to spend more than three weeks at most doing this job.

Do the math: a single charge at 2A from empty will take about 3.5 hours.
A cycle (discharge-rest-charge-rest) takes about 8. You need to run 4 cycles at least on each stick pair. That means at least 14 days straight.

You cannot drive the car without the battery, and you can't use the battery until you've reconditioned ALL the sticks, or you will damage it.

You should budget to rent another car for the duration of the repair.

The Overloader 1 and the Duratrax ICE (and the Team Checkpoint TC1030) are basically the same unit (the TC1030 does 10 amps instead of 8 in the Duratrax). The Overloader 2 is a new model.

These units are rated for performance with sub-C packs, not D (which is what these cells are). I can tell you that a Duratrax ICE is rated for 8 amps discharge on a six cell pack and will die at more than about 4 amps on a honda stick. They literally go up in smoke. At 12 sticks, you might have to keep it under 2 amps discharge.

I have had much better luck with MRC Superbrain 989s, but they don't do a histogram.
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Last edited by Hybrid-Battery-Repair; 12-17-2009 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I ordered one of these Turnigy Accucel 8 7amp charge, 5 amp discharge chargers
HobbyKing Online R/C Hobby Store : Turnigy Accucel-8 150W 7A Balancer/Charger $63.99

It's not as fancy looing as an Overloader 2 is but my needs are more basic.
Would devaluing the discharge amperage in half for one of these(or pretty much anything but the best) be a good idea? The folks using LiPo packs in different RC forums haven't complained of failures from Turnigy equipment much and seem to like them, along with good reviews from customers on the sites that sell them.

Avoid the 'B6' chargers with various brand names that seem to have an IC fail easily in their input circuits, they are all over ebay and are cheap for a reason.

Ron, are these 2006+ HCH pairs Panasonic cells as well?
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorman View Post
Thank you for the advice.
What are the best charge/discharge currents values? what values give the best reconditioning result? are there any advantages or disadvantages here other than the time?
I will appreciate it if you give a feedback about the last question in my original post
Ron did a very nice job on allot of it...

The only thing I will add is this.

Best rates? ... best for what?

For the battery ... ~10 Hr Charge , ~10 Hr Rest , ~10 Hr Discharge , ~10Hr rest , Repeat ~10 times.

But I doubt it is about what is best... it is more like a compromise ... You can get very similar results at faster rates ... maybe not 100% as good ... but up like 95%+ so for good reason most people do not opt for the very time intensive method... for the extra tiny bit of benefit it is rarely worth it.

Best for you is most likely as fast as possible to get acceptable results... I would still recommend to do at least 5 cycles... but even at 1 Hour rates and only a 1Hr rest... That will still take allot of time... You are easily looking at a chunk of time... unless you massively invest in a multi-system like Ron has... but for that kind of investment you can just buy one from him and have it shipped.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:09 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thank you guys. I will try to get these error codes asap and post them here soon.
BTW, the check engine light is always on, while the IMA light goes on and off.
The IMA light has been off for two days now. Does it make any difference if I read the error codes with the IMA light on or off?

Quote:
Balance support is for Lithium cells. This is NiMH. You need it to support 12 cells.
The Overloader 1 and the Duratrax ICE support up to 10 cells, right? if so then those are not viable options in my case, right?

Last edited by Shorman; 12-18-2009 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
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you can use the chargers... you just need to connect at end of one stick and then at the link between stick 1 and stick 2... and then go for stick 2 and so forth
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