Mike Dabrowski 2000 and others, I2 Thoughts needed

[Cobb]

Thanks for any help. Myself and a few others seem to max out the fuel economy in the I2 at posted highway speeds and some hypermiling techniques to no more than 70mpg. My best is 63, almost 70 drafting.

I see Mike and a few others have done a lot and wanted toget more info. Of course if you need to see the car, I am happy to drive within a few hundred miles of Richmond, VA.

As much as the MIMA seems to help you guys, I can see where that maybe too big of a project with so few cars sold at this point or people interested in installing on a new car.

Since I have a block heater, an excuse to plug in my car and am able to where I live, Id love togo the next step and make it a plug in hybrid to get more fuel economy.

What voltage do we need and is there an off the shelf converter we can use to supplement the power needs from a booster pack? Anyone with the know how willing to make and or sell the needed converter?

I love Mikes idea of a 5th wheel. Ive looked for powered hub motors, but can only find this as the biggest around 36 Volt 1000 Watt Direct Drive Electric Motor & Rear Wheel Assembly with Mounting Bracket (Currie Technologies) what else is available to do something like that?

As you can see from the I2 forum, we have no problem making the car "cooler" with tint, lowering, audio upgrades, foot well lighting, wheels, but those only go as so far to increase the fuel economy or negatively effect it.

[MN Driver]

The linked motor/wheel combo doesn't have enough power, that 1000 watt unit is enough to power a scooter as fast as you'd probably ever want to go if it is geared right even up a hill but 1,000 watts isn't even 1.5 horsepower and wouldn't be enough for a car. Mike designed his from scratch, I know I've recently either seen the detailed build, upgrade and rebuild of it either as a thread here or on his site and can't find it at the moment after searching for awhile.

Mike used a Etek motor, a motor originally designed by a company called Lemco, that licensed their technology out to Briggs & Stratton who produced the Etek motor after a slight redesign to make it simple for mass production. Lemco didn't want it to be used for electric vehicle production which was what their license was against and why the Etek license was pulled because people bought the motors to try and put them on their cars and motorcycles and Lemco didn't like that and didn't want them being created anymore.

There isn't a ready-made solution, unfortunetly, as far as I know of and you would need to do some building from scratch. It will take various measurements to find out how it could fit under an I2 and possibly even some modifications to get it to work.

You might be able to track down an Etek somewhere, typically they are used but can be easily cleaned up and the brush set replaced for a pretty much new motor again if the old one did get too much amperage pushed through it and demagnetized.

Here are some motor options, but it looks like the top option actually sells the Etek motors and for a nice price at that.
Electric Motorsport EV Parts :: Etek Motor
Thunderstruck Motors - Description of page goes here. Short sentence that is keyword rich.
Thunderstruck Motors ~ Perm PMG 132 high performance DC electric motor is a pancake style, axiall gap, neutrally timed, brushed, permanent magnet DC motor manufactured by Perm Motor in Germany.

It is a bit of effort to put everything together because you are basically creating a brand new drivetrain for the back end of your vehicle, but if there is room underneath the I2 for it, this is plenty possible. Mike made a very good working design to begin your project with.

[Cobb]

Yeah the search feature didnt turn up too much and Mikes website just gave a brief run down. I do see he added a blower and has the curtis controller limited. I too see he uses the spare tire as an air tank for the cylinder to raise and lower it, wow.

THe I2 has a ton of room in relation to the first insight.



I like the e trailer idea and see I can get a hitch, but I need to use parking garages, so under would work better.

I too have some people use varics(SP?) for manually charging the hybrid pack, but nothing off the shelf. Yeah, I am an idiot when it comes to electronics as to why I am asking for help. I see the MIMA is very involved, therefore I would be just happy with the booster pack and or 5th wheel.

I have a geo metro too and the 5th wheel idea got a lot of attention on the other site I am a member of. I rather use a motor under hte hood inplace of the ac compressor to supplement the power. It has an odb2 system so with no throttle input above 1700 rpms the injectors are cut.

[MN Driver]

I've had the idea of running a motor as a belt drive component to assist the engine as well but wasn't sure how much torque could be carried without putting too much tension on the belt. I did come across this idea although it pretty much requires a permanent modification to the half shaft and I don't know if it would cause issues with the CVT but this guy did it with his metro. He connected a chain drive to an Etek motor and connected it directly to the shaft going to one of the wheels.

Here is the build thread:
Geo Metro XFi Hybrid Project Page?MetroXFi.com
Geo Metro plug-in parallel hybrid EV - in progress - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

A video of it operating for the first time, although he had some chain issues so you can hear the chain jumping its cogs a bunch but he sorted it out later on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggtvqmhj3Tc

It's worth checking out for ideas, it isn't exactly easy to remove the welding that needs to happen to the half shaft and if any sort of transmission issue comes up, I'm sure the dealer would point at it and throw you plenty of questions since it definitely wouldn't look stock under the hood and might add quite a bit more replacement trouble. It does seem fairly simple though, not necessarily easy but simpler than any kind of full EV conversion at least, but it would require plenty of planning to get the gear ratio right for acceleration and so it can assist on the highway if that is your goal, and not to overspeed the added motor if you need to go faster than your normal driving would take you.

[Cobb]

Yeah the "hybrid" metro is stalled. You are right, unless its driven on the bump stops, there is too much variance in chain tenson so it jumps.

I know a 90 amp alternator can pull a 3 hp motor to a stop, so theres at least 3 hp. Of course you can run dual V belts if not a cog of sometype for more power.

I think short of a 5th wheel the motor mounted to the accessories would be best for the metro. The Insight, a booster pack would be idea. I am sure with the lithium batteries it wouldnt be too difficult to rig up enough to use with a few diodes vs any type of voltage converters. I think I read somewhere a gen 1 user has 2 hybrid packs, 1 from a civic. The i2 has a lot of room in the rear. I have a group 27 battery back there for my sub setup.

[Cobb]

I read Finding The Best Hybrid Mix - MIMA Honda Insight Modified Integrated Motor Assist again, however the various converters he uses seems to exceed 144 volts. I have no idea what the idea with the 200 volt prius pack was for and the quarter watt resistor.

With a full charge the i2 uses assist to the max below 35mph. Once the pack is a bar or two down it mixes it with gas. I wanted a way to add a little. I drive an hour at a time, then could recharge. I am guessing getting a prius pack to equal the insight would be a start with diodes to keep the car from rechariging it, then you need a charger for it off your home power.

Why couldnt of they used 120 volts, so it could be done with an inverter?

[Purplegate]

Cobb, my opinion on the next step would be 2 things to develop and adjust for the I2 : MIMA_CVT and booster pack or greater energy battery. I think this would be the leaner modification, instead of fitting a fifth wheel under the car.

I'm by far incompetent to overtake this kind of mod, but could find some funding and surely assist. I'm looking at the progress made right now by Peter in th UK with all his Li-ion batteries, and for sure we could do something for the I2 at some point. Or, the other possibility is the Enginer system, like Erik Power (Becky?) has installed in his I1. Rayholan is doing the same, we are planning to meet in February and I would like to see what he has done. Then, we can see if either Enginer themselves would agree to develop/adjust a pack for the I2, or if somebody else can do it.

But I think without changing the assist control system, such modification alone would not be wise. So it needs a MIMA_CVT… Can this be done ? So far, I think no one has started to really decipher the I2 control. Again, I’m surely not the right person to do it myself. Everything (controller, charger balancer, etc) needs to be “downsized” to the 100V target the I2 uses. Then figure out the new set of system integration Honda has made, if any.

Overall, these 2 mod would just allow incredible coasting time, using electric energy that is added in the car (plug-in) instead of created by the car (regen). I now have a Scangauge II. I see that I can use pulse and glide techniques to coast at 100-110mpg quite easily, but speed decrease fast. Adding MIMA_CVT + plug-in booster would just make a super pulse & glide capability.

I surely am tempted, and surely my I2 made me addict to greater and greater fuel economy. I’m not yet convinced I want to “play in the car’s heart”. Most probably it’s the fear of the I2 being a new car, still early in warranty life… but let’s see how it goes with time. You are much more willing to go for these mod, I think… But one day, soon…, the addiction will take over the logic…

We need a Peter/IamIan/Mike/Erik/and other in the I2 community who master and decipher the EV car system !

That’s my two cents on the mod I would really like to see.

[Cobb]

I know the mima would be involved, so I was happy to settle for the pack.

Maybe I am confused, but I thought from reading the forum for the first gen insights that its a done deal to add to the existing battery capacity with a second pack from a civic or something else home made. Its only if you want to upgrade the oem batteries inside the oem pack that the problem lies.

[IamIan]

The I1 nominal battery voltage is 144V but during regen it can go much higher than that... The Higher voltage prius pack was just a very early test of the concept. The resistor was to limit the current flow between the two battery packs... to avoid something catastrophic from happening.

A DC-DC converter for the I2 might be had for the non technical from a company like those that build the Engineer PHEV mods... but you would have to ask them to know for sure.

The question is that now one I know of who own an I2 has yet risked loss of car , warranty, etc... by opening up the system to start taking some readings and such... when Mike first tried out that prius battery he was risking the destruction of his entire IMA system... it was a test.... he already did some other work from the Electrical service manual and stuff in order to try and figure out what was going on in the I2... but unless someone is donating an I2 to Mike to tinker with and possibly break ... or unless a I2 driver with comparable skill and knowledge is ready to roll up their sleeves to do it... the I2 does not yet have any of that initial data and testing yet done.

Even once all that is done without an I2-MIMA a PHEV mod would give modest MPG benefits, as it would just be removing the hits to MPG from forced regen... to make the best use of a PHEV system requires one to be able to make better use of the electrical energy... thus MIMA.

MIMA for the I2 first step would be for people with skills and knowledge to get their hands on all the service manuals for the I2... just like they did with the service manual and electrical manual for the I1 ... Than for some foolhardy / brave / knowledgeable I2 owners to risk the destruction of their cars , and loss of warranty to do some initial testing.

So at this point the I2 community has 3 options that I see...

#1> Wait ( using the car as OEM for now )
#2> A call out for a brave / foolish / skilled / knowledgeable I2 owner to start the process.
#3> Donate an I2 along with all the service manuals to someone like those from the I1 like Mike and/or others, who do not have one , but wouldn't mind taking it apart and testing everything about it, who have the knowledge to know what they are doing... etc.

The I2 is still pretty new and I think it is unlikely one would be put up for possible sacrifice to the cause.

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Hi Guys,
I designed my boost converter to supply charging current for most of the SOC range, so I set the MAX Voltage to 177V. This worked out well, as I can get the full 16.5A CC at any SOC on the stock pack.
The I2 only has a 108V pack from what I have read, so that would give it 90 cells?
That would mean that the pack would see about 132V when charging near the top of the SOC.

I am working on a booster pack design that would use a stock Prius pack with BCM relays and current sensor, along with a custom buck converter to control current between the packs. Once I get comfortable with the CAN communications that will be required to interface with the Prius pack, tackling the interface to a CAN based I2 should be possible.
Since a switch mode buck converter can run at 80-90% efficiency, the voltage difference between packs will effectively boost the runtime as an output current from the boost pack of say 15A would yield over 20A into the IMA.
As far as the e-wheel, by the looks of the underside of the I2, there is not much room under there to fit much of anything. The I2 does have an EV mode, so it may be sufficient to add a PHEV pack, and a MIMA like control to just extend the capability of that mode of operation?

The last I checked, the electrical service manual for the I2 was not published, and without that manual and a car to take some measurements from, it will be impossible to even start the process of developing a boost battery,MIMA, or any serious modifications of the drive system.
MIMA for the I2 and Civics, in theory may be a much simpler mod than it is for the first gen Insights, as much of the required signals are passed between the computers via CAN bus.
A single connection may be all that is required??