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Old 03-16-2010, 10:03 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default brake caliper swap?

What do I need to put calipers from a CVT onto a 5 speed model? Just the caliper, or do I need the bracket as well.

Thanks
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:32 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The bracket is different between the two models so you need a bracket and caliper assemby for left and right. You will aslo need brake pads for the CVT.

You can use this as a reference:
Honda Automotive Parts

It appears that if you order 6 and 7 (left and right)...you will get the whole kit including the bracket.

The CVT has a more conventional brake system like the old CRX....The MT version has brake pads with return spring fingers so that is why you need all of those different parts to switch over. For the MT model, I think that Honda did this for less drag during non-braking (nearly all driving time on the road - something the CVT does not have).

Check this out for the less drag description:
InsightCentral.net - Encyclopedia - Honda Insight Braking System

I have looked into this option but to go the other way around. I have a CVT and was looking at what I would need to switch over to the MT braking system.

So my question to you is.....I can understand why I (a CVT owner) would want to convert to a less drag braking system but why would you want to convert from the MT (less drag) to the CVT (more drag) brake system?

Are you having problems stopping? The CVT system is a little more beefier but not by much and the pads will rub against the rotors more compared to the MT design. I don't know how much MPG loss there would be but Honda did have a different design for the MT model for a reason.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
__________________
2003 CVT Blue Insight
Modified version of MIMA_L (with foot pedal)
Automatic warm air intake (all season)
Low Speed Auto Stop (LSAS)
ABS - IMA regen enabler (allows regen during ABS)
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine
Cooling fans powered by 12V Solar Panel

2004 CVT Red Insight
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine

2001 MT Blue Insight
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine
Installed clutch switch with relay for AutoStop
(on the road with 290,000 miles)
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Old 03-16-2010, 02:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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the M/T has a unique brake pad therefore it's hard to find more performance brake pads.

the CVT on the other hand has a ton of options due to it being the same shape as multiple cars.
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Old 03-16-2010, 02:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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So it is for performance reasons in getting non-Honda pads....Are you doing some type of racing with your car?

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
__________________
2003 CVT Blue Insight
Modified version of MIMA_L (with foot pedal)
Automatic warm air intake (all season)
Low Speed Auto Stop (LSAS)
ABS - IMA regen enabler (allows regen during ABS)
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine
Cooling fans powered by 12V Solar Panel

2004 CVT Red Insight
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine

2001 MT Blue Insight
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine
Installed clutch switch with relay for AutoStop
(on the road with 290,000 miles)
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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plan on it.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crxgator View Post
the M/T has a unique brake pad therefore it's hard to find more performance brake pads.

the CVT on the other hand has a ton of options due to it being the same shape as multiple cars.
The front pads for the gen I insight M/T appear to be the same as the pads for the 1988 CRX HF. Those are available in a number of grades from cheap Chinese to Performance Friction or Hawk 397
Don't know about thickness but will try mine this weekend. (left from my 1988 CRX HF, never needed pads. guess that continuous 40 mpg just didn't need braking that much)
Worked just fine on my M/T. The brakes are now better than the tires traction.

Last edited by mahout; 03-19-2010 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahout View Post
The front pads for the gen I insight M/T appear to be the same as the pads for the 1988 CRX HF.
Did the 1988 CRX HF have spring fingers on the outer pad as shown here:

Honda Automotive Parts

(look at the near center of picture to see outer pad with spring finger)

Besides the spring finger difference, the width of the gutter area that the brakes rest into and slide back and forth is also different between the CVT and MT... Perhaps some other brake pads may physically install but are they too loose in the guide area.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
__________________
2003 CVT Blue Insight
Modified version of MIMA_L (with foot pedal)
Automatic warm air intake (all season)
Low Speed Auto Stop (LSAS)
ABS - IMA regen enabler (allows regen during ABS)
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine
Cooling fans powered by 12V Solar Panel

2004 CVT Red Insight
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine

2001 MT Blue Insight
Relocated outside temp sensor near mid engine
Installed clutch switch with relay for AutoStop
(on the road with 290,000 miles)
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Old 03-20-2010, 09:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joecvt View Post
Did the 1988 CRX HF have spring fingers on the outer pad as shown here:

Honda Automotive Parts

(look at the near center of picture to see outer pad with spring finger)

Besides the spring finger difference, the width of the gutter area that the brakes rest into and slide back and forth is also different between the CVT and MT... Perhaps some other brake pads may physically install but are they too loose in the guide area.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
Are you speaking of the low pad ear? No they are not on the Hawk HPS 397 pad and are not necessary if you maintain your Insight propertly. They do fit in the locating slides just loosely enough to be truly efficient. On all vehicles that will use brakes heavily we always filed and mitered the ears :010" on the 3 sides so they will slide back and forth easily, not hanging up on the discs or caliper slides, especially when they get hot. Here in the mountains, Insight or not, brakes will get quite hot. It works just as well on the coast. I know we're not your usual Insight pilot because I drive whatever speed it takes to get my work done, including acceleration, so I'm happy with 53 mpg. Worse, we've been known to 'track' the Insight as well. Did you know thge Insight will drift?
The locating tabs for the piston cups are nice for installation but have no real function beyond installing ease; the locating slots (slides) are the real means of locating the pads in the caliper.
PS mitering the edges of the pads about a sixteenth also brings their engagement with the disc easier and less prone to noise.
And don't forget to 'polish' the discs when you install new pads. (but don't polish to less than allowable thickness)
good luck. cheers.

Last edited by mahout; 03-20-2010 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 03-20-2010, 11:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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i'm really confused because the p/n pads you gave for the HF are the same as the A/T insight.

ill check both out, at work tomorrow.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:33 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crxgator View Post
i'm really confused because the p/n pads you gave for the HF are the same as the A/T insight.

ill check both out, at work tomorrow.
It gets worse. I went and found the old pads I replaced and they have no tabs or ears either. And I know the HPS 397 pads fit my Insight gen 1. Do you suppose the pad supplier uses only the HF pad now? According to the FMSI and Hawk pad drawings they appear to do so.

Aha! We pulled the replacement pads and indeed they are not HPS397. Back in the day we 'manufactured' many Hawk and Performance Friction pads for a number of SS racers. These pads indeed were made from another pad and inventoried as 1988 HF.
Though Honda did make a pad for the the 1985-87 CRX 1.3 and, 85 CRX HF, 82-83 Hatch 1.3 that has the dimensions of the Insight pad, more than likely we made the pad from either a Corvette rear D413, PC 413, or Alcon 740 ( Formula Atlantic) pad because they were offered in competition coimpounds. Both are quite close so only minimum machining or grinding is necessary.
However, the inner Corvette pad has the minimum thickness of 14.7 mm so they would be preferred although the 740 needed the least thickness trimming if indeed needed any thickness reduction.
We'll go thru the FMSI books and find out if there is a pad that works in a competition compostion and offered now..
But for now Hondaparts show a price in te $40 range so for most that's all thats needed.

Last edited by mahout; 03-23-2010 at 10:07 PM.
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