AC & Water Pump Belt

[IamIan]

Well I tracked down the source of an odd noise my Insight Engine started making a little while ago. The AC compressor and AC clutch are both bad.

In my service manual page 10-8 and 10-9 it shows two different belt arrangements one with AC and one without AC. The AC compressor and clutch just look like an add on to the basic non-AC system.

I asked local Honda dealer about what they would charge to repair or remove it... $1,600 to repair ... and they claim it is impossible to remove as the AC is an integral part of the engine... Well their price was too high and I didn't like their bit about it being impossible either.

Now eventually I had planned to change my AC system anyway to a different setup... so the removal of the OEM AC was kind of already on my to do list... timing is not the best with plenty of other projects already going on... but oh well.

I haven't removed it yet... the car still runs ... and I feel as though I still have some time to iron out my options ... The compressor is still spinning freely ... if someday it were to seize up , sense the AC clutch is bad as well ... that would mean in a short period of time that belt would be toast... and the major issue with that is the water pump is driven from that belt... but I suspect I would notice if either of those happen ... and although not ideal , as long as I don't over heat the engine I should still be able to limp around like that even with no belt for very short trips if needed.

As I see it I don't want to leave it the way it is long term... the compressor seizing up is a potential issue ... right now it's just dead weight.

I am currently weighing the pros and cons of two different options ...

#1> Just remove the OEM AC compressor and clutch short term ... and eventually remove all the OEM AC system replacing the belt with the non-AC configuration shown in the service manual.

#2> Remove the OEM AC system and install a small electric motor to drive the water pump.

#1 is the more straight forward option ... but it occurs to me that #2 offers a few additional things ... it would give the ability to turn it off in cold weather, effectively a radiator block ... but better sense it can be turned back on any time .... and by moving the load off the engine to a electrical source it would make it a tiny bit easier to stay in lean burn , at least as long as you were not doing any regen , either from high SoC , or from MIMA control.

but there you go... so now you know... feedback / thoughts are welcome.

Thankfully it is coming into nicer weather ... I am not a fan of doing outside work in the winter.

[joecvt]

Originally Posted by IamIan

I asked local Honda dealer about what they would charge to repair or remove it... $1,600 to repair ... and they claim it is impossible to remove as the AC is an integral part of the engine... Well their price was too high and I didn't like their bit about it being impossible either.

It is not an integral part of the engine...If you remove the compressor, all you need are items 2 and 3 from Majestic Honda as shown here:

Honda Automotive Parts

You currently have items 6 and 9 installed. As you know the belt will be different but the idle pulley is different as well due to the belt routing. With A/C, the outer flat portion of the belt runs along the pulley (a smooth surface). Without A/C, the grooved inner portion of the belt runs along the channels of the pulley (a grooved surface). That is the reason for two different pulleys based on what side of the belt runs along the pulley.

The cool thing is Majestic Honda stock these two parts for only $44.36 total (both parts included) and since you live nearby, you will save on shipping by picking them up directly. Majestic Honda is located in Lincoln Rhode Island so it only probably like a 10 mile drive for you

That is a good deal for you if you need Honda parts to get them discounted and no shipping charges.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner

[rayholan]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Well I tracked down the source of an odd noise my Insight Engine started making a little while ago. The AC compressor and AC clutch are both bad.

In my service manual page 10-8 and 10-9 it shows two different belt arrangements one with AC and one without AC. The AC compressor and clutch just look like an add on to the basic non-AC system.

I asked local Honda dealer about what they would charge to repair or remove it... $1,600 to repair ... and they claim it is impossible to remove as the AC is an integral part of the engine... Well their price was too high and I didn't like their bit about it being impossible either.

Now eventually I had planned to change my AC system anyway to a different setup... so the removal of the OEM AC was kind of already on my to do list... timing is not the best with plenty of other projects already going on... but oh well.

I haven't removed it yet... the car still runs ... and I feel as though I still have some time to iron out my options ... The compressor is still spinning freely ... if someday it were to seize up , sense the AC clutch is bad as well ... that would mean in a short period of time that belt would be toast... and the major issue with that is the water pump is driven from that belt... but I suspect I would notice if either of those happen ... and although not ideal , as long as I don't over heat the engine I should still be able to limp around like that even with no belt for very short trips if needed.

As I see it I don't want to leave it the way it is long term... the compressor seizing up is a potential issue ... right now it's just dead weight.

I am currently weighing the pros and cons of two different options ...

#1> Just remove the OEM AC compressor and clutch short term ... and eventually remove all the OEM AC system replacing the belt with the non-AC configuration shown in the service manual.

#2> Remove the OEM AC system and install a small electric motor to drive the water pump.

#1 is the more straight forward option ... but it occurs to me that #2 offers a few additional things ... it would give the ability to turn it off in cold weather, effectively a radiator block ... but better sense it can be turned back on any time .... and by moving the load off the engine to a electrical source it would make it a tiny bit easier to stay in lean burn , at least as long as you were not doing any regen , either from high SoC , or from MIMA control.

but there you go... so now you know... feedback / thoughts are welcome.

Thankfully it is coming into nicer weather ... I am not a fan of doing outside work in the winter.

Good ideas you have there. Several years ago I bought a Davies Craig electric water pump to add to my (at the time) non-Insight vehicle. It got a bit pricey as you need the thermostatic switch unit AND the pump unit. Together, I think it was about $400. Never did install it. Got buyer's remorse and sent it back for the refund. IMHO, the cost would never justify itself in gas savings, but if that's not your primary motivation, have at it. I think your theory on the load and lean burn is sound. Of course, it all hinges on HOW MUCH load that tiny little mechanical pump adds to the total engine load. If you're after higher MPG number as I know you are, you're not revving much past 2200 rpm's on the highway. Load added by the water pump increases in some proportion to rpm's so it seems to me less likely you'll make a detectable dent in your MPG with this swap. Of course, it's all theory until someone does it. Why not be the first! Good luck.

[MN Driver]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Well I tracked down the source of an odd noise my Insight Engine started making a little while ago. The AC compressor and AC clutch are both bad.

In my service manual page 10-8 and 10-9 it shows two different belt arrangements one with AC and one without AC. The AC compressor and clutch just look like an add on to the basic non-AC system.

I asked local Honda dealer about what they would charge to repair or remove it... $1,600 to repair ... and they claim it is impossible to remove as the AC is an integral part of the engine... Well their price was too high and I didn't like their bit about it being impossible either.

It's a belt driven component, my car is a VIN 5(non-AC) but it has AC, I'm pretty sure it was added after the fact, removing should be easier than installation for the first time considering the effort of plumbing it. I didn't know about the different idler pulley though until now.

... and although not ideal , as long as I don't over heat the engine I should still be able to limp around like that even with no belt for very short trips if needed.

Only if your very short trips involve going from one side of the driveway to the next, otherwise you will have severe engine damage well before your temperature gauge decides to tick up to 4 bars.

I am currently weighing the pros and cons of two different options ...

#1> Just remove the OEM AC compressor and clutch short term ... and eventually remove all the OEM AC system replacing the belt with the non-AC configuration shown in the service manual.

#2> Remove the OEM AC system and install a small electric motor to drive the water pump.

#1 If you remove the AC compressor and clutch but don't have anything running the water pump your engine will fail and quickly.

#2 That is an option but make sure you have a way of detecting any motor failure and make sure you can shut the engine down QUICK in case it ever stops.

... but it occurs to me that #2 offers a few additional things ... it would give the ability to turn it off in cold weather, effectively a radiator block ... but better sense it can be turned back on any time .... and by moving the load off the engine to a electrical source it would make it a tiny bit easier to stay in lean burn , at least as long as you were not doing any regen , either from high SoC , or from MIMA control.

It doesn't work that way, it doesn't act as a radiator block, it completely stops ALL water movement in the engine not just what moves through the radiator.

but there you go... so now you know... feedback / thoughts are welcome.

Thankfully it is coming into nicer weather ... I am not a fan of doing outside work in the winter.

Never EVER EVER EVER run an engine for even a minute without CONSTANT water movement. You will murder your engine when the water in the hotter areas boils and becomes steam in your engine while the water in the cooler areas isn't circulating to the hotter areas to cool them.

The water pump doesn't just pump water through the radiator when the thermostat opens, it constantly moves the coolant in an attempt to keep the temperatures in different places of the engine as even as possible. When they aren't and metal expands at different rates or hot spots cause your coolant to boil, you've got some very serious problems, likely leading to your engine becoming a core. Don't run without a constant flow, electric water pumps might slow down but should never stop.

[IamIan]

Thanks for all the feedback

I was not aware of the idle pulley difference either ... it does make sense but I did not know , and it didn't occur to me that they would be different ... nice tip

Also excellent point about heat distribution even for short periods of time ... if the compressor seizes up I will be on a shorter leash than I had originally thought.

- - - - - - - - -

The idea for electrically driven water pump will probably be further off ... the timing is not the best for me right now... But as long as my Insight holds out long enough, eventually I'll get to it ... like other things on my long wish list of pending Insight projects

but for now... #1 it is... well once I get the parts ... hopefully next weekend will have some nice weather.

[IamIan]

Bypass is in and seems to be just fine so far.

The Spring Ring was the biggest pain in the #@$!%%$ .... I must have spent at least 5 hours trying to get that tiny piece of metal out ... if anyone else ever does this I hope it just pops out like the manual describes for them.

Had to also remove the AC clutch pulley... it was in the way and the belt would have been rubbing into it... so I have to use a pulley puller ... but the Autozone offered tool loan of the pulley puller and the clutch holder ... Now that it is all done I just have to return them to get my deposit back.

Hurray !!!

Now eventually I will have to go get the system drained so I can move on the the removal of the rest of the now dead weight... I'll put it on my summer to do list.

The replacement system I eventually want to put in... will have to continue to wait for now... other projects have higher priority.

If you had all the tools and parts ready to go and didn't run into issues like I did with the Spring Ring... the whole thing is probably a ~30 minute job... start to finish... as it is I'm glad I did it on a weekend.

[pascal28]

Did you completely remove your A/C system?

Does the heater control unit work ok?

Do you get any error codes?

Lastly, what & where is the spring ring?