worried about batteries, can you drive without?

[steffen707]

So i'm looking into buying my first Insight. I know the 05 and 06 had the upgraded electronics that were supposedly causing the battery packs to fail from 00-04, problem is i can't afford an 05-06.

I want to buy a 00-02 but i'm afraid of buying one, then having the battery die out on me. if that happens, can you drive the car without battery assist? I read somewhere that the 12 volt battery is charged by the battery pack and that an alternator would need to be installed, or some kind of DC to DC converter to go from 144 down to 12 volt?

Eventually lithium battery pack would be nice, but i have no idea when they will be affordable and if I can afford a used car now if the battery might die on me out of warranty.

HELP?

[JimIsbell]

Originally Posted by steffen707

So i'm looking into buying my first Insight. I know the 05 and 06 had the upgraded electronics that were supposedly causing the battery packs to fail from 00-04, problem is i can't afford an 05-06.

I want to buy a 00-02 but i'm afraid of buying one, then having the battery die out on me. if that happens, can you drive the car without battery assist? I read somewhere that the 12 volt battery is charged by the battery pack and that an alternator would need to be installed, or some kind of DC to DC converter to go from 144 down to 12 volt?

Eventually lithium battery pack would be nice, but i have no idea when they will be affordable and if I can afford a used car now if the battery might die on me out of warranty.

HELP?

I dont think there is any truth to your rumor that the electronics were changed to make batteries last longer. There were some changes. but for crying out loud, I am running a 2000 MT using the original 11 year old battery.

And, the battery is repairable, and refurbish-able, unless its some catastrophic failure. Just adding a $100 charger to the tool kit will bring back many supposedly dead batteries!

[steffen707]

Originally Posted by JimIsbell

I dont think there is any truth to your rumor that the electronics were changed to make batteries last longer. There were some changes. but for crying out loud, I am running a 2000 MT using the original 11 year old battery.

And, the battery is repairable, and refurbish-able, unless its some catastrophic failure. Just adding a $100 charger to the tool kit will bring back many supposedly dead batteries!

Its not really a rumor, it was in the Service Bulletin for the extended warranty on all 2000-2004 insight ima battery packs. they could flash the 2002-2004 somthing or other, but had to replace that electronic device in the 2000-2001. I'll find the link and post it.

[steffen707]

FROM
US IMA warranty 10 year extension UPDATED to all 50 states!

Summary of the IMA battery Warranry Extension follows:

Because of a class action settlement, the warranty extension coverage for the IMA battery module on 2002–04 Insights purchased or leased between April 13, 2002, and November 7, 2006, is now 10 years or 157,500 miles, whichever occurs first. 00-01 Insights remain at the previous 10 year 150,000 limits.

And remember 05-06's were never extended beyond the original 8 year 80,000 limits, presumably because they already have the updated components blaimed for premature failures.


All 2000–2004 Insights registered in the states of Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Nevada, and Texas get the IMA battery module ONLY if it fails. (No, I don't know why there is this difference)


ALL other States:

Replace the IMA battery module if it has failed. In addition, replace the battery condition monitor and the motor control module on 2000–01 models or, on 2002–04 models, replace the battery condition monitor only.

2000–01 Insight With M/T
IMA Battery Module
BCM, and an MCM

2001 Insight With CVT
IMA Battery Module, BCM, and an MCM

All 2002–04 Insights
IMA Battery Module and BCM ONLY

05 & 06's are NOT covered under this extension.

IIRC there is a similar extension for CANADA, but I don't remember the particulars. However, I'm sure U.S. law doesn't apply and the "new" 157,500 mileage limit would not apply.

AFAIK the rest of the world has the original 8/80,000 limits.

[JimIsbell]

Well, I have 11 years and 215,000 miles so far with original electronics and still going strong.

[aisbell]

Originally Posted by steffen707

Its not really a rumor, it was in the Service Bulletin for the extended warranty on all 2000-2004 insight ima battery packs. they could flash the 2002-2004 somthing or other, but had to replace that electronic device in the 2000-2001.

Many (most?) early Insight owners took advantage of this free product update, so many early Insights have the latest battery and motor management software. Some on this forum prefer the original battery and motor management software because they contend that it results in better fuel efficiency. Others prefer the latest software in hopes that it will increase IMA battery life as Honda intended.

Any Honda dealer should be able to tell you what warranty and product update service a particular Insight has had so that you should be able to find an early Insight with a decent battery and updated software.

But as Jim stated, the life of IMA batteries can probably be extended by rebalancing the individual cells with a custom charger/balancer if the car has not been driven for a week or more which can lead to increasing imbalance among cells. Another forum member offers an IMA battery rebuild service for far less money than Honda charges for their rebuilt IMA batteries. So battery failure isn't as serious a problem as it once seemed that it might be after the IMA warranty expires.

Also, an Insight can be driven without the IMA system by disconnecting one wire in the IMA battery compartment. This allows an Insight to be driven while the IMA motor along with the standard 144 VDC to 12 VDC converter keep the 12 v. battery charged. The infrequently-used standard 12 v. starter motor will be used for starting instead of the IMA motor. The car will be fairly gutless, especially when starting from a stop uphill or with the A/C running. But your car won't be disabled until the IMA battery is repaired.

[steffen707]

Originally Posted by aisbell

Many (most?) early Insight owners took advantage of this free product update, so many early Insights have the latest battery and motor management software.

I'm confused, I thought it was just a warranty extension, meaning that IF there developed a problem it would be replaced for free from HONDA. You make it sound like with or without a check engine light, you could just take your car in, and get the electronics and battery replaced as long as it was under 150,000? Which way is it?

Originally Posted by aisbell

Also, an Insight can be driven without the IMA system by disconnecting one wire in the IMA battery compartment. This allows an Insight to be driven while the IMA motor along with the standard 144 VDC to 12 VDC converter keep the 12 v. battery charged. The infrequently-used standard 12 v. starter motor will be used for starting instead of the IMA motor. The car will be fairly gutless, especially when starting from a stop uphill or with the A/C running. But your car won't be disabled until the IMA battery is repaired.

This is super awesome news, i thought it rendered the car useless until you got the IMA batt pack fixed. I'm aware that with only 67hp the car will be a dog, i use to own a CRX HF and that was a dog as well.

[joecvt]

Originally Posted by steffen707

You make it sound like with or without a check engine light, you could just take your car in, and get the electronics and battery replaced as long as it was under 150,000? Which way is it?

It is a warranty extension.....In order to qualify, you had to have the IMA light on with the proper failure codes.....I think the common ones were P1447 and P1449 for warranty work.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
(and former 1984 CRX owner)

[MN Driver]

Originally Posted by steffen707

I'm confused, I thought it was just a warranty extension, meaning that IF there developed a problem it would be replaced for free from HONDA. You make it sound like with or without a check engine light, you could just take your car in, and get the electronics and battery replaced as long as it was under 150,000? Which way is it?

There was a letter that came in the mail that offered the IMA firmware update that said that it might prolong your pack life. I have that update in my car, I'd rather not have it because after discussing the differences with how the pack behaves between my newer revision and their older one, I would rather have the older one. I'd rather be able to use my entire packs state of charge range rather than have it charge up to 18 bars with a hidden charge every time I hop on the highway. I drive on the highway for pretty much every trip and this knocks me out of lean-burn. So basically I avoid using the battery as much as I can and regen to stay 18 bars as much as I can to avoid this hidden charge that kills my MPG. I've considered that if I weren't heading in the direction of MIMA that I would pull the pack to save the headache of trying to keep the pack nearly completely full all the time. I'd rather use some of it accelerating and then replenish it when I have real chances at useful regen, instead sometimes I end up hitting 20 bars and losing regen when I'm slowing down for an unexpected light on the highway when going 65 and lose all of that kinetic energy through friction. I can't imagine how bad keeping in the top miniscule percentage of the pack can possibly be better for my battery so I make sure that every month or so I run the pack down and charge it back up to hopefully keep the batteries active. If I don't drive on the highway or any constant speed for more than about 5 minutes, I never get this hidden charge and can hang in the middle, it's much nicer there but not for long as it tries to force charge again.

This is super awesome news, i thought it rendered the car useless until you got the IMA batt pack fixed. I'm aware that with only 67hp the car will be a dog, i use to own a CRX HF and that was a dog as well.

The Honda Civic Hybrid, Insight 2, Accord Hybrid(I think), have their BCM and MCM as one unit and it all shuts down at once, since the MCM is needed to charge the 12 volt battery, you basically lose what would normally function as the alternator. So if you've got a decent condition 12 volt battery, you can probably get home with the headlights, radio, and blower turned off if your drive is under 30 minutes or so.
The Toyota Prius on the other hand uses the high voltage pack to move the car, reverse the car, and start the car. It is dead in the water without its pack. I'm not sure about the Ford or GM hybrids though.

I don't consider 70 horsepower, or whatever it really is 67 to be a dog at all. Hanging in the lower gears and letting it rev up a bit leaves decent performance, it's not a sports car after all. Also keep in mind that the car is only 1800 pounds, it's 500 pounds lighter than pretty much any subcompact or compact car sold right now which makes a pretty big difference. Due to the design of the IMA motor in the car, it isn't the torquiest engine but it catches up with itself around about 3,000 rpm.

[Rush]

Steffen -

The reason the "electronics that were supposedly causing the battery packs to fail from 00-04" as you say, is that they did not charge the battery pack above 80% and discharge the pack below 30%. The new upgraded BCM and MCM's changed the charge/discharge numbers to 60% and 40% (or something like that, I don't exactly remember the specific numbers). So what Honda did was use the battery pack less for the assist and therefor 'prolonged' its life. This is normal with any battery, the less you charge/discharge it, the more cycles it can have. But are not using the battery to its fullest potential...

The battery pack and the electronics can only be relaced at Honda's expense if it is still under warrenty. Some people have had their packs replaced 3 times... some are still using the original pack, depends totally on how the car is driven.

I have a 2000 with the original battery and at 175k miles I am starting to have battery problems, but there are remedies as you will learn if you read some of the other threads dealing with battery/IMA questions.