Custom-built front and rear springs -- I'm organizing a group buy

[JoelR]

For those of you who would like to make your high MPG commuter more fun to drive, I'm doing the ground work for organizing a group buy for Swift Sport springs for the 1st gen Insight. The philosophy for these springs will be to balance good handling with comfort & daily driveability using the stock shocks and struts (kind of important since they're our only option right now).

Interested?
#1 - JoelR
#2 - Eli
#3 - Eli
#4 - Rainsux
#5 - jdstew
#6 - Erik
#7 - lach
#8 - Blue-Civic-Hybrid
#9 - wallmon
#10 - tj00093
#11 - Insightlover2011
#12 - neloner
#13 - jeff652
#14 - Henri Laborde
#15 - JoelR (for Insight #2)
#16 -


(image below is for Honda Fit application)


Earlier today I spoke with Swift springs USA about the Insight. I figured asking them about custom springs would be a long shot but actually, if we can get 10 people lined up, they'll produce a set of 4 for the Insight for $399 each. Based on my research for my 2010 Fit, getting Swift involved on the Insight is really exciting. When I inquired on Fitfreak about upgrades for the Fit, it was impossible to avoid at least 5 happy Swift springs customers from jumping in and raving about their setup. So, I bought the Swifts for my Fit and I can totally see what they were talking about. That's also what inspired me to look into a solution for my Insight and I never dreamed Swift would get involved.

Anyhow, Swift's process would involve getting their hands on an Insight at their Ontario California location, measuring everything, figuring out damping rates of the stock shocks/struts, etc. and then having the springs produced at their plant in Japan. Total time would be 40 days.

This is an amazing opportunity folks. Tell your friends, let's make it happen!

Joel

[Eli]

So with a group buy, each person could order different specs? That seems a little strange, but OK. The main problem being that I have no idea what I would order.

So the springs that Mitch ordered were 37% stiffer, but dropped the ride height by 0.25"? What does progressive rate mean?

Are there any threads on changing out the front springs? I'm all for better handling performance, but I'm mainly interested in rear springs unless it can be shown that fronts will make a noticeable difference in handling.

Sorry, I'm not a suspension guy! Also, I didn't know which thread to respond to.. so I asked questions in this one, and noted my interest in the other. :P

[Eli]

So.. It kinda seems to me that we're throwing random things at the car and hoping for the best.

If we're going to have custom springs engineered, wouldn't it be worthwhile to find out exactly what would be best? Where did the numbers that Mitch used come from?

How much would it cost to have a suspension shop actually take a good long look at the suspension on our cars, and determine what spring specs would give the best handling performance? I dunno. Maybe it's not as rocket sciencey as I'm making it out to be, but I'm a numbers person so it would be nice to get some actual data from a skidpad or something.

Otherwise, it just kinda seems like we're floundering about without anyone really knowing what is going on.

[JoelR]

@Eli - I agree with your concern about throwing changes at the car, hoping for the best. This is where Swift would actually take an Insight into their shop, look at the suspension design, figure out what improvements could/should be made & work out a solution that's an optimal balance between comfort & handling. Based on my 2010 Fit Sport w/Swift Springs, I can testify that they know how to strike that balance better than I ever imagined. I was trying to prepare my wife for the potential that our family car might get kind of STIFF but in the end, it's not noticeably stiff or harsh, it's just awesome and she's a big fan. They also take into account the stock damping rates so you can be assured that they won't over stiffen the car beyond what can be controlled by the shocks/struts.

[JoelR]

(trying to merge threads myself)

[Eli]

Hmm. Yeah, this would be amazing from a pure handling standpoint, and I would still be in.

Unfortunately, the reason I am, and many others have added stiffer rear springs is because we have/will have extra batteries in the back of the car.

I'm a little concerned that those needs would become lost? But maybe not. Obviously anything stiffer than stock in the back would be better for that purpose.

Hmm. It would be nice if you could just explain all of this to them. Explain that people are using Chevy Aveo hatchback springs with around 1 coil cut off. Maybe they would be willing to measure its specifications, just so we know?

It would be nice to know the best springs for both overall handling, and then for more load carrying capacity. It would be really nice if they happen to be similar.

And honestly, I wouldn't care how stiff the Insight got. That's a good quality in my book. It's not like the car is luxurious to begin with, but that's also a good quality in my book. I like being able to hear the noise of the road and the sounds of your engine as you run through the gears.

[Blue-Civic-Hybrid]

This is very interesting, I will think about it more. Swift does make great springs for the Fit!

[Eli]

Can we find out exactly what the improvements and design goals would be? Would this be determined after they're able to get their hands on one of our cars, with input from us(you)?

I'm a little nervous about commiting without knowing exactly what is going to change, as is a friend. I'm also nervous that we're not going to be able to come to a consensus on what each person wants.

Ex: What about the people who have added Aveo or Matiz springs and like the ride height adjustment? I'm not interested in raising the ride height unless it's either necessary, will improve handling significantly, or is kept to a minimum(1/2" max?).

What if the new springs end up still being too soft for the 70+lbs of batteries I plan on adding? Hmm.

[JoelR]

I'm basing my assumptions about what Swift's approach to the Insight will be on their philosophy toward the Fit springs that I like so much. Until Swift gets their hands on the car, it's all conjecture on our part what they will actually determine is possible to do with the Insight.

To move forward, I think we need to find 10 people who will trust that Swift will find a way to create an optimized & more sport-oriented set of springs & express an intent to purchase a set when they become available. I absolutely have that trust. I don't expect that we'll have to hand over any money until we all have a more clear picture of what Swift can do.

As for this set of springs being optimal for more spirited driving AND suitable for hauling extra battery weight, I think that's widening the parameters to the extent that neither goal will be adequately met. For the extra battery weight case, I think the CSS offering is probably more appropriate.

One thing I haven't mentioned that I think is pretty cool about Swift's product is that they use a proprietary spring material that allows them to use thinner wire which results in lighter weight, fewer coils and *increased* spring travel which for the rear of an Insight is very attractive. Read the literature on their site & look at their springs vs. their competitors. They are quite unique.

Joel

[Eli]

I agree with all of that. I've never participated in anything like this before, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

It would be nice to know if their spring solution will increase the load capacity of the car at all. I would be shocked if it didn't. I don't really know what the tradeoff between more weight capacity in the back and an optimal handling setup would be.

It's not that you can't stick 70lbs in the back with the stock springs, it's just that it pretty much takes up all the spare load capacity of the car. With stiffer springs in the front AND the rear, even if only a bit stiffer, it could make a big difference in the way the car carries its load, and help offset the less stiff than Aveo/Matiz springs in the back(assuming they even will be)?

I'm still in. If it doesn't pan out, I'll just offer my sets for sale. I am betting that it will still be worlds better than stock. We'll just have to see if that's good enough for my purposes.

It really sounds like we need to get a car in their hands ASAP. Any ideas guys?