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Old 12-10-2012, 01:15 AM   #551 (permalink)
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I wondered about that but thought it was me still learning about the charger. I changed the time on mine to 600 and still got a charge stop due to timeout. See the attachment to my post http://www.insightcentral.net/forums...6-post528.html above.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:11 AM   #552 (permalink)
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As we can see, I am still learning as well.

The max time variables were meant to be a safety, rather than an operating variable, and we expect the charge to stop in regular charge for the plateau R8 in any recharge.
As you can see from your results, you stopped for R3, so it is best to just run the series over again, with the new settings.

Sorry for getting letting this get past me, but I am doing my best, and in this case it was not good enough.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:45 PM   #553 (permalink)
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I completed my "week later" maintenance charge with no apparent issues. Outdoor temps were in the high 20s to low 30s. With the space heater, the car interior started at about 57. Later, it got up to 70+. It looks like in-out temps started in the low 40s (maybe 42F) and ended up in the mid 50s (maybe 56F). So no problem with temps, especially with the Cold Charge variable set to 1 (low temp).

I reset the SampleTime variable up to 45 from 30, and that appears to have eliminated the early charge stop in the low current charge. I wasn't careful about reading back all the data at the end of the charge before turning off the charger, so I don't have all data updated in the Variable Data page, and nothing really in the Cycle Data page (since this wasn't a discharge/charge cycle I assume).

I also tried all the different methods to copy the page images (PrtScrn, Print to printer, and Print to HTML), and they all worked, though the HTML version points to files local to my hard disk. Those would be harder to post, though the temporary file jpg images are good if you can find them. To save space, I posted the PDFs here.

I have the full data file if it is of interest, but I think this is just a non-remarkable result, which is just fine...

B
Attached Files
File Type: pdf vars.pdf (37.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: pdf Graph2.pdf (24.3 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by bluesight; 12-10-2012 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Graph Update
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:15 PM   #554 (permalink)
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I need to change the HTML file output to a simple cycle data report, in a nice spreadsheet just for that purpose.

I have been working with the lady in Iceland
On the cold charge possibilities, and now have yet another new version of the code, V 2.6
The way it works on V 2.5 is that mode 3-4 the delayed modes will autostart on power up if the option 7 bit is set, before powering down, and the fan also runs during the delay to let the car warm the battery.
In this last version 2.6, I make the cold charge option also non volatile so that the chances of the charger tying to start after the delay and failing due to temperature are minimized, so the pack can continue to warm during the charge which will give the pack plenty of time to get in the zone before the real balancing takes place at the end, therefore reducing the need for a long delay,
Trying to get much smarter than that with all the possibilities there are for temperature combinations that we don't anticipate, and it gets in the zone where fuzzy logic would be a better way.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:01 PM   #555 (permalink)
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My overview of what actually is happening when we charge was written and placed here:
http://99mpg.com/blog/whatactuallygoeswr/
I copied it here as well.
IMHO:
Hybrid battery packs develop several problems as they age, which are aggravated based on temperature history, and length of time spent inactive.
Inactivity allows the cells to self discharge, and since all cells are going to do this to one degree or another, and the rate of self discharge can be quite different from one cell to another, a typical pack that is setting codes like the 1449,1447,1433, will have cells that have fallen way behind others , and the IMA control system which works to keep the cells in the 20% to 80%, has no mechanism to rebalance them.
All Nickle based batteries develop this self discharge because they can spend a lot of time sitting at a middle SOC, where Nickle dendrites (little whiskers of nickle) will grow and gradually provide a leakage path between the + and - plates, eventually leading to a shorted cell.
Another thing that happens when a cell drops down in the SOC relative to the other cells is it develops an effectively reduced capacity that is recoverable called Memory effect.
Memory effect capacity loss is reversible by fully cycling the cell from 100% to less than 1V/cell.

So the code setting pack has this unmatched set of cells with widely different SOC, and wide spectrum of effective AH capacities, which reduces the effective capacity of the pack as a unit to a value that sets the code.

When the car charges the pack to full, (80% SOC) it stops when it thinks the pack is full, with the assumption that all the cells are the same, where in fact some cells are still only partial charged.
The discharge limits are also skewed so the pack stops allowing assist long before the highest capacity cells are empty because one of the low capacity cells has dropped out.
When that happens the rest of the pack discharges through the empty cell effectively reverse charging the cell.
The IMA safeties kick in causing the SOC guage to drop to the bottom, and aggressive charging begins to pull the reversed cell back from sure destruction.

The longer the pack is used like this, the worse the pack gets.
Another factor in this picture is heat.
Once a cell gets to 140F the internal pressure can get so high that it vents potassium hydroxide and the cell will permanently loose AH capacity. No amount of charging can bring back capacity lost due to venting.

The charger and discharger system will first fully charge all cells to 100% SOC, for the first time since the pack was installed. This can take a long time, as we have to limit the charge current so the cells that fill up first do not overheat.
When a cell is fully charged, all the charge energy becomes heat, which is why the cooling fan should always be used during charging.

Getting the whole pack to 100% will fix some packs, especially ones that have become unbalanced due to just sitting and self discharging, and have not developed any memory effect.
Hypermileing where you do not use the pack much can cause the pack to develop the same self discharge unbalance.

Most packs have both memory effects and real capacity loss, as well as differing degrees of self discharge, so the discharger aspect of the system becomes a great tool to extend capacity on the memory effected cells by cycling the pack between full and the detection of the dropout of the weakest cells in the pack, The idea being that the weakest capacity cells are the ones causing the problems, so since they will be the cells that get the deepest discharge, if the issue is memory effect those cells will recover capacity with each cycle, and the minimum voltage reached during the discharge should get lower and closer to the 1V/c level which would be 120V on a 120 cell Insight or first gen civic. A well balanced pack even if at low capacity will discharge uniformly so the discharge would stop at near 1V/cell.
In the real world that is seldom is seen, since all packs will have several of these issues happening at the same time, so there will be a point where the discharge will repeatidly stop at the same elevated voltage, like 138V. At this point the cell that is dropping out is likely one that has lost capacity due to venting or simply age, and to get that pack back in balance, we look at the other cells when that cel drops out to see if they are also ready to drop, or if the majority of them are still quite good.
At this point, if the car is still setting codes, we need to take to process from the car to the bench.
Using a procedure that we are still tweaking, we can use the charger/discharger, and datalogger to discharge the pack with the ends open so we have access to the ends of each stick, to make voltage measurements.
If the other cells are still well over 7V replacing the stick that dropped out with one of higher capacity, would then allow the cycles to continue to reduce memory effect and increase capacity of the rest of the pack.

Comments corrections additions?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:41 PM   #556 (permalink)
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I think we may need a thoughtful reconsideration of the default values in the charger/discharger. I find that I don't get the best results if I use the default values, but I'm just kinda stabbing in the dark when I change them - just using semi-educated guesses. I have found it necessary for example to extend the charging time and topping time to get the batteries fully exercised.

Can we agree to up the parameters at this point, or am I too early on this request?
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:17 PM   #557 (permalink)
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http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...tvariables.pdf
This is how I am setting up the chargers I am sending out, with my best guess as to what the defaults should be.
All charger owners are advised to use these values unless they have found settings that work better, in which case let us know, and let us know why you think they are better, and we can keep updating the list.

Last edited by Mike Dabrowski 2000; 12-11-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:38 PM   #558 (permalink)
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Two new versions of the DataloggerV2_6 and conigV2_6 are available.
The config is the same program, but since it needs to be installed in the same directory as the datalogger,it needs to have a different name.
Install works the same
The temp and rate of change graph is now the same length as the battery graph so it is easier to see how they relate, and the biggest new feature is the cycle tab now can save a cycle data CSV file with a simple press of a button. this file is small, and will show all three cycles of both banks.
The file is generated with the same name and destination as the datalog file, with the addition of Cycle data added to the name.
Be sure to download the cycle data from the charger before writing the file. You have the option of adding new cycle data to the existing file (Append)or generating a new file.
Config V2.6:
http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...configv2_6.zip
Datalogger V 2.6
http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...loggerv2_6.zip

I don't know how to make excel auto format the column width. Need some help from an excel master.

Here is what I get
http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/down...dataformat.pdf
The bottom photo is what I get if I manually format the columns to auto fit.
I think that part of the problem is the CSV file name, how does the XLS differ?

Last edited by Mike Dabrowski 2000; 12-14-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:06 AM   #559 (permalink)
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The default parameters are indeed quite conservative, but they're this way for a reason - there are a huge number of packs out there, each with their own unique identity.

The cutback voltage doesn't really matter as long as the soak time is long enough.. but it's the main thing I change in order to get a full charge. The default settings won't charge a fully depleted pack/cell without Xtra soak enabled.

With a healthy pack and a ~60-75 degree ambient temperature, you can easily raise the cutback voltage to 172V. Using the charger to charge a brand new pack, the cutback voltage is set to 174V.

Ambient temperature has a profound impact on pack voltage and needs serious consideration.
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Last edited by Eli; 12-21-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:12 AM   #560 (permalink)
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Thew new defaults with 45 minute sample time will topp of the pack better, and that can be raised to 60 or more minutes to find a more stable plateau. if the pack stops rising at less than the cutback, the charge will continue at 1A, and the plateau detect only starts after the cutback, so the charge will stop due to max charge time, or max temp dif. I found it is best to do a soak, then ssee where the pack topps off voltage wise, and one can raise the cutback with knowledge that the pack will get there.
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