Large Group Purchase of A123 20ah cells

[ericbecky]

I am coordinating a large group purchase of A123 20ah, prismatic pouch cells.

The goal is to get enough people to commit for 500 cells which should get us to a target cost of ~$25.50 per cell.

With just 50 of these cells you can build a lithium pack for your Insight like Peter Perkins' has been driving for the last 2 years.
A123 20ah Lithium Install

Preferably, people would by in 50 cell blocks.

The bulk shipment of cells will be delivered to my Wisconsin shop, and I will repack/re-ship from there. The re-shipping cost will be at the buyers expense.

Assuming 500g per cell weight I'm estimating that a box with 50 cells in it would weigh about 65 lbs. (Someone can check my estimates on that an reply on the thread. Use Wisconsin zip code 53704 to estimate your individual shipping cost.

The last pieces I'm trying to nail down is confirmation of any bank fees, duty fees, etc that may have to be added into addition to the $25.50 price. I'm hoping I have it already figured out, but am still asking lots of questions and want to be sure before anyone locks in.

The final price will be a cash/check price: $750 sent when you confirm your intent to get in on the buy. Remainder upon receipt of the cells.

If a group buyer uses a third-party paysource I'll have to ask that you cover the additional fees associated with it.

Some cell specs: Data Sheet: 20Ah Prismatic Pouch Cell

Ask questions, and when the final price is confirmed, I'll ask start asking for commitments so we can get the ball rolling as soon as next week.

[rayholan]

Originally Posted by ericbecky

I am coordinating a large group purchase of A123 20ah, prismatic pouch cells.

The goal is to get enough people to commit for 500 cells which should get us to a target cost of ~$25.50 per cell.

With just 50 of these cells you can build a lithium pack for your Insight like Peter Perkins' has been driving for the last 2 years.
A123 20ah Lithium Install

Preferably, people would by in 50 cell blocks.

The bulk shipment of cells will be delivered to my Wisconsin shop, and I will repack/re-ship from there. The re-shipping cost will be at the buyers expense.

Assuming 500g per cell weight I'm estimating that a box with 50 cells in it would weigh about 65 lbs. (Someone can check my estimates on that an reply on the thread. Use Wisconsin zip code 53704 to estimate your individual shipping cost.

The last pieces I'm trying to nail down is confirmation of any bank fees, duty fees, etc that may have to be added into addition to the $25.50 price. I'm hoping I have it already figured out, but am still asking lots of questions and want to be sure before anyone locks in.

The final price will be a cash/check price: $750 sent when you confirm your intent to get in on the buy. Remainder upon receipt of the cells.

If a group buyer uses a third-party paysource I'll have to ask that you cover the additional fees associated with it.

Some cell specs: Data Sheet: 20Ah Prismatic Pouch Cell

Ask questions, and when the final price is confirmed, I'll ask start asking for commitments so we can get the ball rolling as soon as next week.

Sounds like lots of due diligence has been done. Good job, Eric. Count me in.

[jime]

Originally Posted by rayholan

Sounds like lots of due diligence has been done. Good job, Eric. Count me in.

OK, you said questions. Here's my question. How are you going to assure yourself, and us, that the cells you get are all of standard quality, not rejects that A123 wouldn't accept? Do you have some sort of QC in place?

[Rush]

Are these cells guarranted for any period of time? What happens if there are some 'bad' ones? How do I get them changed out for 'good' ones?

Are you going to take responsibilty for the quality?

Just the type of questions that people will ask me if I volunteer to do a group buy of NiMH cells...

[IamIan]

Thanks for all your efforts.

Questions:
#1> I like to know who I'm dealing with ... you , I know ... but who's the cell vendor? ... Unless you are intending to be acting as the vendor / distributor ?? ... I've seen many floating around the internet from time to time ... not all getting equal reviews ... if you only want to act as the person coordinating this group buy ... that's fine too ... to me at least there's a significant difference between the two distinctions.

#2> When the final price is confirmed ... I'll need some additional information ( like an address ) to send the funds ... probably best to do that in PMs or direct emails to avoid some of that kind of personal information getting out on public spaces of the internet.

I'm potentially interested in 55 cells.

Hopefully they don't collect too much dust before I get around to the intended projects.

Hopefully they test out as well as they have for some others I've read about doing this type of group buy from China route... only time will tell.

[ericbecky]

I am happy to share as much info as I have.
Good questions and comments from everyone.

Ray, Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Rush, I hope I am not setting a precedent for everyone one else's group buys, but it's a place for us all to start from at least. (like identifying the vendor, etc)

My goal is to help get these out into people's hands now while they are available and the cost is down. Prior to this, the only person on this board who bought cells to make an Insight pack this was Peter Perkins and at that time the cost was nearly twice as much!

...but who's the cell vendor?

1) IamIan, the cell vendor is the same one Doctor Bass and other reputable people on Endless Sphere have identified. Victpower. I am helping organize the group buy.

A123 20Ah grey market test at 100A - YouTube

A123 20Ah grey market test at 100A - YouTube

When the final price is confirmed ... I'll need some additional information

2) IamIan, Makes sense. Address etc will be sent via email.

Are these cells guarranted for any period of time?

3) Rush, Not sure what a reasonable time to give people to run them through their tests? 10 days? three weeks? A month? To be honest I don't want to deal with these things after a month goes by. So that said, my answer is 30 days. They vendor says they have a 1 year warranty, but too many times I see people wreck them of their own doing (overcharging, undercharging, etc) and for right now I'm just trying to help get these out there for people while they are available at these prices.

What happens if there are some 'bad' ones? How do I get them changed out for 'good' ones?

4) Rush, 'Bad' ones damaged in shipping to me will be taken care of between vendor and me. If voltage is 0v or shorted out it will need to be returned to the mfg, they will confirm the situation and they will send a replacement.

Are you going to take responsibilty for the quality?

How are you going to assure yourself, and us, that the cells you get are all of standard quality, not rejects that A123 wouldn't accept? Do you have some sort of QC in place?

5) Rush and jime, I have been assured by the vendor that
- the cells are not rejects from A123.
- the cells are 100% new and original

The vendor ships large quantities of cells every day, and will not be checking them. Before I send them on to you I am not testing them in any way other than probably spot checking some for voltage. For now I am simply trying to get them in the hands of people at the best price. I will facilitate whatever I can if there are issues of course. I don't have the equipment to do the QC. I am not trying to make this a business venture.

I have had conversations with others who have used this supplier as well as looked at many, many unfiltered posts on the internet at Endless Sphere, EVTV and other forums. I feel comfortable as we can as a first time user of this publicly known vendor. I look forward to you guys getting them in your hands and being able to share even more than I ever could about them. For example Mike Dabrowski will have some of the same cells from the group buy and I'm sure will do testing that he will release the results of probably once he finishes some other projects.


Let me know if I missed any questions.

[samwichse]

Sounds pretty standard... I know most people on DIYElectriccar.com doing builds buy a few extra cells because the companies in China basic send out without QC so there are often a couple bad ones in a pack of say... 50 120ah or 160ah CALB cells.

[RedJellyBean]

Are we putting the cart before the horse by getting batteries before Peter's BMS is remotely close to being developed for this setup?

[retepsnikrep]

A bit perhaps but I understand the enthusiasm. Getting, distributing and building the cells into a case etc will take a fair while so that gives us some time. Several months at least.

To make a group A123 build feasible and supportable from 3000 miles away I have to develop a simpler to build version of my BMS slave boards, and build and program a combined Master/Interceptor/Fooler/Charger controller pcb.

Now the schematics and software will be very close to what I already use.

For the 25 cells slave boards it's a question of adding an IDC 26 way connector and getting rid of a few components as it will possibly use the 12F1822 pic which has it's own internal voltage reference.

For the master/interceptor/fooler/charger controller.
It's a question of pulling it all onto one pcb, ditto the software.

I mentioned 2013 earlier we might be able to do better than that like later this year if things go well. Remember I work full time.

My current A123 setup works well, but is a mishmash of pcb's and not very install friendly. It was the prototype, we need to allow time for me to use what I learnt in a V2.00 setup.

We need to thank Eric for taking the lead in organising this over the pond. It's just it will take longer than people think.

[Rush]

Originally Posted by ericbecky

I am happy to share as much info as I have.
Good questions and comments from everyone.

Rush, I hope I am not setting a precedent for everyone one else's group buys, but it's a place for us all to start from at least. (like identifying the vendor, etc)

Eric, thanks for the answers.

If the buy goes well, as I'm sure it will, I think that it would be a great precedent for other buys, take credit for organizing a difficult task... but I still see problems that some people might bring up - what are the actual parameters for a 'bad' cell, voltage, amps, SOC, how are they measured, Fluke meter vs a Harbor Freight 4.95 special...

I applaud your statement of 30 days, good for you.

And I'm sure that Peter can come up with a ballpark price for his end of the deal so that people can have a full picture and not just do the battery part and then find out that the whole deal is about 3k or so and be stuck with the batteries.

With the increased capacity of the Pouches and their published longivity coupled with the fact that the Insight system will never take them close to the max Discharge/charge (pulse discharge up to 400A at 100% SOC and pulse charge up to 350A at 10% SOC) specs it should be a shoe in for us.