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Old 01-31-2013, 10:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Searching for the WHY of warm air intakes

So I picked up my car from Chris22104 this past weekend. Very nice guy. He knows these cars well and I was happy with the purchase. He showed me his hot air mod, which he needs being in Buffalo. For him it helps the engine heat up faster, and placing the sensor for auto stop in the airbox allows him to auto stop in sub freezing temps.

I almost did this myself, but being in MD, where we don't have sub-freezing temps but maybe 50 days a year, I question its need on my car. So I started looking around, and saw different people doing the mods differently. I couldn't discern whether the intent was solely for better below-freezing cold weather performance, or better mileage year round. The threads seemed to focus on the how, but I want to know the why. I have a few theories on how WAIs affect our cars, but want to discuss them to make sure I am catching all the important stuff. EDIT: I've had people PM me about theories, so I am editing the list. Perhaps with enough input on and offline, I can turn this first listing into the answer instead of just the question.

Theory 1 for how WAI helps - Increased use of auto stop - As outlined above, this would be an advantage. But for my environment, I would only have gains on those sub-freezing days. Although getting the engien up to temp faster allows AS to start sooner.

Theory 2 for how WAI helps - Heat engine up faster - An engine in it's proper temp range will run better for many reasons. If cold it will enrichen the fuel mixture, have more blowby, and have to churn cold oil.

Theory 3 for how WAI helps - Less dense air takes less fuel - If the air is warmer, it's less dense. So in closed loop this will result in a rich mixture, which will then be corrected the O2 sensor by using less fuel until the engine runs at the mixture the ECU wants. In open loop, while the engine is warming up, the IAT sensor will sense warmer air, and will pair less fuel with it than if it were colder since it is less dense, and warmer air evaporates fuel better.

Theory 4 for how WAI helps - Less dense air is easier to pump - not much explanation needed there.

Theory 5 for how WAI helps - Less dense air makes less power, which means we need a larger throttle opening, which means less pumping losses. - It's kind of effectively decreasing the displacement of our engines. Larger throttle openings lead to better specific fuel consumption. AutoSpeed has a great article on BSFC complete with a BSFC chart for the Insight here.

Theory 1 for how WAI hurts - Less dense air makes less power - Is this good or bad?

Theory 2 for how WAI hurts - Less lean burn or ignition advance use - Having higher air intake temps might lead to conditions more prone to knock, so the ECU would be less agressive with ignition timing, and perhaps not let the car into lean burn as often. Anyone notice a difference in lean burn use with and without a WAI? I've read stuff like "110F seems to be the peak for widening the leanburn window." in JoeCVT's thread about his automatic WAI. So apparently warmer air is better for leanburn. I've tried searching for more on that, but without much luck. I'm really curious in what ways intake temps affect leanburn operation. Could someone comment here? I could just ask for clarification in JOECVT's thread, but that info would be so buried away at the end of a long thread that it might not do others any good in the end.

I'm now thinking that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, and that this will help mileage even for those that don't deal with frigid temps on a regular basis. Please enlighten me.

Last edited by weelliott; 02-05-2013 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Refining the theories based on input from others.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I have also heard:
Theory number 4 of why WAI helps:
It reduces the density of the air both going in & out hence reducing pumping losses.


Would be nice to get to the bottom of this. Of course one also needs to consider why Honda didn't do it - although the OEM air intake does pass close to the engine.

Full disclosure: I have a WAI mod and I think it gives a benefit but have not tested it scientifically like what really needs to be done.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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It's well documented that warmer IAT help enter and maintain lean burn. The lean burn operational window is very small; so small that air density changes affect the car's willingness to use it. It's all just ECM programming.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I've found lean burn to be pretty lenient with temps... 'course, it doesn't get all that cold here on the coast. Usually nights are around 55-65 degrees F when I'm driving home at night. It has no problem going into lean burn after driving a couple miles on the freeway, though.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've found lean burn to be pretty lenient with temps... 'course, it doesn't get all that cold here on the coast. Usually nights are around 55-65 degrees F when I'm driving home at night. It has no problem going into lean burn after driving a couple miles on the freeway, though.
55-65F is fine overall, though the warmer the better. We're talking 40F and below. That's when you'll really start to notice it.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Welcome and congratulations on your new Insight. If you go to the "user CP" you can edit your signature to contain details about your car, or practically any other info you want.

There was a thread, sorry I don't have it referenced, on just the IAT question you are pondering. Perhaps if you serched some using the search engine, the google part works best, you can locate it. One of our members experimented rather widely and concluded that 115F was the optimum. I try to keep mine as close to that temp as I can by using air from the catalytic area are redirecting a pickup tube depending on the time of year. I have a project to install a cable operated flapper valve so that I can regulate the IAT manually. One guy on here has rigged a thermostatically controlled IAT setup by adapting parts from another Honda -forget which one. It is hard to maintain 115F in some climates in the winter because so much heat is lost in the air cleaner box.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Back to Eli's comment about opening up the lean burn window. I have the warm air mod that is automatic. Without insulating the tube from my cat I can get about a 65degree f temp rise, and above 35 f it will maintain intake air temps around 98f.

Since winter hit my tank mpgs have dropped from highs in late summer of 77-79 mpg down to around 65, with a lot more work than in the warmer months. In the winter I run the warm air mod, full lower grill block, partial upper block, and use a block heater for 1.5 hours each morning.

I don't think that the warm air mod has done much if anything to increase my mpg. Tuesday the temp was 65 f and I was getting good mileage in the rain, today it was 8 f when I got home.

I think that what is killing my mileage in the winter is:

1) darkness. I need to run the headlights going to work and coming home. It is real tough not to background charge now. On long straight stretches you can see when e 12volt battery is charging and sits at 13.8-14volts, and when it is not charging it sits at 12.0 volts. In the summer without headlights it rarely shows 13.8 volts, but in the winter it shows 13.9 volts more than 12 volts. This seems to slowly take charge from the ima battery.

2) I need to use the defroster some to keep the windows clear. I can definitely feel when the AC is running and it is a big mpg hit.

3) when it is under about 10f and the car has been sitting out the battery operation goes wild. Tuesday it was 65f. I left work and the battery state of charge keep increasing to about 86%. Normally it won't charge past 72%. It did this increase without a regen charge, just driving flat and level. Then today at 8f temps I start the car to leave work and it is around 70% charged. It starts background charging back to around 86% at 10 amps. Once it gets to 86 it then proceeds to burn off all the charge it just put in. While it is burning off the charge it won't regen either. I am not sure where it is dumping all the charge but i know the rear defroster runs without turning it on. Also, in the very cold temps the battery fan runs, right after starting the car, when the interior temp is just as cold the outside air temp. Needless to say at the 10 mile mark today I don't think I broke 50 mpg, at 40 miles I made it to 62mpg. Would have been upper 60s if the weather was in the 20s! And on great summer days I could make it to work or home in the lower 80s.

Sadly the warm air mod does not seem to have done much for me. It is quite possible that with lean burn it would help, but not such luck with my cvt.

Anyone with a cvt getting any big benefit from the warm air intake?
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Sadly the warm air mod does not seem to have done much for me. It is quite possible that with lean burn it would help, but not such luck with my cvt.

Anyone with a cvt getting any big benefit from the warm air intake?
I don't have a CVT, but on the MT one can actually see that there is considerably more lean burn after the engine bay reaches temperature and after the IAT gets into the range of 85-90F. In addition to the time element, the engine "seems" more efficient with IAT up to around 110-120F, but for me that part is kinda seat of the pants. The Insight is notoriously difficult to test for these kinds of things.

Moving the ambient sensor to the air cleaner sounds like an interesting mod to me.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Need4Speed View Post
3) when it is under about 10f and the car has been sitting out the battery operation goes wild. Tuesday it was 65f. I left work and the battery state of charge keep increasing to about 86%. Normally it won't charge past 72%. It did this increase without a regen charge, just driving flat and level. Then today at 8f temps I start the car to leave work and it is around 70% charged. It starts background charging back to around 86% at 10 amps. Once it gets to 86 it then proceeds to burn off all the charge it just put in. While it is burning off the charge it won't regen either. I am not sure where it is dumping all the charge but i know the rear defroster runs without turning it on. Also, in the very cold temps the battery fan runs, right after starting the car, when the interior temp is just as cold the outside air temp. Needless to say at the 10 mile mark today I don't think I broke 50 mpg, at 40 miles I made it to 62mpg. Would have been upper 60s if the weather was in the 20s! And on great summer days I could make it to work or home in the lower 80s.
This is all normal behavior. I assume the BCM is trying to warm the battery, it seems like a fairly aggressive warming though. The fan running on low when the battery is below 32F is also normal.

The "bleed off" you see is by the DC-DC converter. I have never heard nor seen mentioned that the rear defroster runs without turning it on though. That would be fascinating if true.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:23 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I have never heard nor seen mentioned that the rear defroster runs without turning it on though. That would be fascinating if true.
I believe the rear defroster is automated to turn on when the ambient temp is below 40*f
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