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Old 07-11-2004, 04:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: Venice, FL
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Default A/C Mod for mpg's

Hi All,
I have a mod for the A/C system to take some of the load off the
compressor. With the A/C on we take a pretty good hit on the mpg’s.
This is fairly simple and straight forward with logical results. I further
insulated the low-pressure pipe (cold pipe) that goes from the compressor
to the firewall. It’s the thicker of the two pipes and has a “L” on the
charging access cap. Before starting I cleaned the area with windex.
This is one of the mods where my first attempt bombed. I had insulated
it with a sticky back dense insulation tape which did not work very well.
Oh well, yanked it back off.
Home Depo has a split hose insulation with sticky back that does work.
It’s called Armacell, comes in 6’ lengths and is only a few bucks each.
If you wish to do this mod you’ll need two lengths ( one Fits ½” Cop. And
one Fits ¾” Cop. ). They also have a flat light foam 2” wide sticky back
tape. You’ll need a roll of this for securing the seams of the Armacell.
As you’ll note Honda did think to insulate part of the pipe with a short
piece ( aprox 12” ) of foam where the pipe is the highest and probly the
hottest. It’s held in place by a few small spots of glue. The hardest part of
the pipe to do is between this foam and the firewall ( no room ). By twisting
and turning the foam Honda put on you can break the glue loose and walk
the foam down the pipe till it’s up against the firewall. That takes care of the
most difficult part of the pipe. You can use the ½” foam to do the rest of the
aluminum pipe and the ¾” foam to do the rubber hose part ( as far down
towards the compressor as you can reach ). Near the highest part of the pipe
you’ll find a black/white clip that snaps on to the high and low-pressure pipes,
this can be removed. Just forward of this clip there’s a metal clamp with a
8mm bolt (10mm hex head ) that secures the low-pressure pipe. This can be
removed. Just forward of this is a length of black spiral plastic rapped
around the rubber part of the hose, this can be removed as well. After
insulating the pipe I cut the spiral plastic into 3 equal pieces and rapped it
around the insulated pipe where the metal clamp was. Put a tie-rap through
the hole where the bolt was and around the insulated pipe to secure it.
I used the flat sticky back foam tape to seal the tubing ends and seams.
Although it may not be necessary I put the car on blocks, removed the engine
under panels along with the aluminum panel they attach to at the front to
do the rest of the cold pipe. Did use clear tape to help sticky back set.
Results are what you’d expect. The hot engine compartment is sucking
less cold out of the low-pressure pipe so the compressor doesn’t have to
work as hard. This equates to better mpg’s. At highway speeds you’ll
feel small surges as the compressor cycles more ( those pesky marketing
people probly didn’t like this ) but it results in being able to maintain
better speed. Lean burn works better too.
Here in Venice FL it gets pretty hot in summer, 90+. Time to complete
mod: ½ hour shopping, 1 hour staring at engine compartment and about
1 hour to apply and secure insulation. Happy cooling…
Hope I did these pics right..When you get to the pics click on
"normal size" for a better view ( I hope ).

http://community.webshots.com/user/jackmpg
Jack
P.S. Checked and the pics seem ok. Thanks for the consideration,
patience and assistance of all who helped in this enlightened group.
Window tint also good, throwing dish towel over steering wheel to
protect it from sun. Also, Canvas Works in Sunnyvale, CA makes
one of those folding/rollup winshield reflectors for the Insight,
model # 799. A similar mod could be done to the HCH.
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Old 07-12-2004, 02:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
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What a great idea! I have to put that on the to do list. I like the fact that it will add almost no weight to the car.
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The laws of physics don't need changing, but rather our attitude and values. 72.8 LMPG
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Old 07-13-2004, 06:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Hi b1shmu63

Thanks and a question. Iv'e thought for
awhile about raising the drivers seat
( too low ). How did you do it. Don't
the front mounts come down at an angle?
Please let me know.
Thanks,
Jack
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Old 07-13-2004, 09:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Unlike the CRX the bolts go straight down.

I used spacers made of flat machinable PVC plate. I used a hole saw to create the round disk and then drilled the center hole larger to match the M8 and M10 bolts. I only raised the front .4 inch and the back .25 inch. Sounds like nothing but it feels quite different. I might go farther in the future but I would need to get longer metric bolts. The threads are 1.25 pitch. I will try to get SS cap head machine screws from Fastenall. You will notice that the seat belt is fastened to the seat so that is why they used larger bolts on the back and used an anti vibration glue on them. They are quite stiff to remove innitially. If I find a source for longer bolts I'll let you know.
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Old 07-17-2004, 11:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I did the AC mod today! before I installed the insulation I checked to see just how cold the bare aluminum tubing got. Man was it cold to touch!

I installed 4.5 feet of black closed cell - three quarter inch rubber insulation by slitting it open and then sealing it up using aluminum tape. I picked up the insulated tube from an air conditioning supply house for 12 dollars CDN. The insulated tube had "Aerocel-EPDM / UV resistant" marked on the side. It was big enough to fit over the rubber hose and fittings. The aluminum tape was from Venture Tape, Rockland, MA 02370-0384, USA. I had picked it up at a hardware store a few years back. It works where other tapes fail and has dozens of uses around the shop. Thanks to Jackmpg for the heads up on this mod!
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Old 09-24-2004, 12:11 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I tried this mod yesterday, turned out very well for $10 at Home Depot. Thanks for the idea and information.



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Old 09-25-2004, 09:13 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I hate to burst everyone's "bubble" in this thread but the modification will have _no_ impact on MPG _and_ has the potential for AC compressor damage.

The large line returning from the evaporator is called the suction line. Refrigerant vapor is being drawn from the evaporator directly into the compressor. Any "cold" not exchanged by the evaporator is lost (actually its heat absorbed). To think of it another way; since this pipe is outside the cabin its ability to help cool the cabin is nada.

The compressor must not be "fed" liquid refrigerant under any circumstances. Should the volume of incoming liquid exceed the volume of the compression chamber in the compressor "slugging" occurs. Liquid is not very compressible and something will have to give.

The lack of insulation on this return pipe helps assure (yes its a minimal factor) that any remaining liquid in the return line can fully evaporate and expand into a gas.

Insulate the return line to the compressor? Don't do it!
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Old 09-25-2004, 10:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Hi, sorry for my lack of knowledge on this but are you sure that in the line, the cold side is liquid. I always tought that is was gas on both sides: one side compressed and hot. the other with less compression therefore colder, but not liquid.
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Old 09-25-2004, 11:18 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yves M.
Hi, sorry for my lack of knowledge on this but are you sure that in the line, the cold side is liquid. I always tought that is was gas on both sides: one side compressed and hot. the other with less compression therefore colder, but not liquid.
The "cold" side is not liquid, its evaporating liquid (gas).

Hint: You wrote it yourself "one side compressed" what is a compressed gas?

Link:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac2.htm

The link doesn't have a flow direction arrow, read the narrative which describes a clockwise flow on this diagram.

HTH! :)
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Old 09-25-2004, 11:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for the link! I finally learned how a "Propane Refrigerator" works, been asking myself this for more than 20 years but never took time to find out. Good site.

I see your point on the liquid. But I would not expect it to be possible. Since the cold comes from evaporation (pressure diff at the expansion valve), the fact that the tube is cold should prove that the cold side is gas, like you wrote near the compressor
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