Turbo kit experience

[figgy]

I think it appropriate to devote a thread to not the buy/sell process for the turbo kits but the driving and user experience along with troubleshooting.

I figure Willie's thread should stay intact, as that is about Willie's ongoing ground breaking adventure, and the buy/sell should be about the buy/sell so this one will fill in the rest.

[figgy]

FIRSTLY:

DTCs encountered

To start, in the buy/sell, I mentioned the MAP sensor out of bounds error causing the check engine and 'safe mode' coming on. My experience is that when the error code trips the IMA drops and you kind of lurch not to a full stop but lurch with a quick deceleration and then you can still decently cruise along in 3rd or higher, but 1st and 2nd are worthless. One time I had a really rough idle. Every time I have reset the DTC, things have gone completely back to normal.

However, I have now reset after it comes on that same DTC many many times and I still get it very frequently. Jack and Willie - do you still get that code error? If not, how many times did you reset the error code and how did you drive to trigger it?

I am also sometimes seeing a 'pending' code P1165 (the bank 1 sensor 1 O2 sensor) and 'catalyst not operating efficiently' or similar as 'pending' codes. Do you guys see these codes as well?

I am sure I am not doing the car any favors by inducing the error codes since it gives it quite a jolt when the code brings the car to the 'safe mode' - so I don't want to keep doing it unless I know it will be just a few times and then over and done with...

SECONDLY:

IGNITION TIMING ADVANCE

I recorded the 'ignition timing advance' over some longer drives and find that it ranges from -18 to 40, which seems a huge range. I haven't looked at that parameter before on a stock Insight. Is this outside of normal?

THIRDLY:

CLEARING DTCs

I can clear the DTCs and have the car return to normal without stopping, and I can't detect any problems associated with this. I assume that if Honda made it possible to do this, it is OK? Does anyone know of anything to the contrary about clearing the codes while driving?

[Insightful Trekker]

Originally Posted by figgy

I think it appropriate to devote a thread to not the buy/sell process for the turbo kits but the driving and user experience along with troubleshooting.

I figure Willie's thread should stay intact, as that is about Willie's ongoing ground breaking adventure, and the buy/sell should be about the buy/sell so this one will fill in the rest.

GREAT idea Figgy

I'll do what I can to help too

[Yves M.]

Hello Figgy,

Does your car setup have more boost in psi than the others have. I do not remember that they had similar problems.

I have a very hard time beleiving that the car "learn" from a driving style as mentionned somewhere else. It just operates within is programmed parameters. You need to be in there.

Did you have any codes before doing the mod, could it be something that was going to happen?
If I remember, Willie had a separate fuel injector used when Boost is applied. But I would expect that if it gives not enough or too much gas, it would get the system to think that it is not properly measuring the gas and mix. Since it has no control over that injector

Those are just questions basically, I do not have answers. Brain food.

[figgy]

Right now it is set to 6 lbs as maximum boost. From other replies, I think that the stock exhaust system back end still on until Saturday is the likely culprit for the issues coming up as far as DTCs and such.

Thinking about this and how things are so far, I think for me I will find the ideal system to be the proper exhaust system in place and a max boost of no more than 5 lbs and maybe even less.

I am not trying to make the fastest car on the street, I want to make the funnest car on the street.

My reasons for the low boost maximum are that even with the stock 'pea-shooter' exhaust, I still get enough power to torque streer a bit and with proper exhaust I will only haver more power. Therefore, it seems that 5 lbs is likely enough boost to give you all the power you need AND let you stomp on it if you want and go for it to race the Ferrari without ever having you worry that you are overpowered and feel like there is any doubt as to your control.

Secondly, I really like the quirky way one drives the Insight and the kind of 'IMA' style for mpg, and a lower boost system kind of floats on this as a secondary feature at the lower boost ranges helping out but not dominating and therefore, I believe leading to more fun driving but at the same time more efficient driving.

I am anticipating that a max boost level of between 4 lbs and 5 lbs (which is so low as to make the boost heads laugh) will allow for all the fun without really changing the funky way the Insight is with the IMA. The downside is that you aren't quite powered up to really go fast, but the upside is that you have all the fun of the turbo and power when you want it. Thus, if you want to turn a blind eye to lmpg you can zip around with impunity, but if you want to go for a hypermileage tank or two, you can still do it same or better as stock.

As a last comment, I really want to know if a low max boost system can be used to create super-hyper-mileage driving. For example, as a test what if the max boost is even as low as 3 lbs? What if that gives you extended battery life and better mpg at the same time? What if that means that when you are using all your assist and then run your battery down and have to downshift and use more gas, you can instead use 90% of that assist, with the turbo taking up the slack from the waste energy in the exhaust and then your IMA is better and your mpg is better?

Everyone drives turbos for power and no one drives them for mpg, what if we tried a turbo as an mpg maximizer? It might be totally cost in-efficient given that the turbo isn't free, but I really want to try it as an experiment. I would love to prove that a low boost system can give better mpg than a stock system. It would be fun.

[kapps]

Remember that when you put that more open exhaust on, your boost is going to go down a bit. The air is going to have an easier way out of the engine so you will have even more power with less boost (both a good thing).

I also have a MINI Cooper S and know people with 19% under drive pulley's will drop from 19 to 18 or 17 lbs of boost when they get an open exhaust. Since your running a low boost system, it's not going to be as dramatic but it'll still be there. You might not have to dial back as much as you think.

[Willie Williford]

As I said many times before and Jack has realized. Going from a "normal" car to an Insight, you relearn how to drive. Going from an Insight to a "TURBO INSIGHT" you again have to relearn to drive. I very seldonm use over 50% throttle opening and feather the turbo into use. My LMPG is stable at 58.9 after 143,000 miles (79,000 with turbo). Don't "mash" the gas pedal, learn to "feather" the pedal.

After you learn to drive with the turbo, you will be able to drive (without assist) (with assist) and (with turbo). Keep the engine "humming around 2200 to 2500 rpm and your mileage will be proper.
If you don't have a vacuum/boost gauge installed, get one.
That is what I monitor mostly instead of the "foot".
(Less load on the engine at a specific rpm equals better mileage and less wear on the IMA battery)...............My opinion.

[figgy]

I don't mean to imply that I run around flooring the gas every chance I get. I hope it doesn't appear that I meant that!

My observation is that with the system partially installed now, I see a very diminished low rpm contribution of the IMA assist vs stock.

This is most noticed if one tries to create a condition under which the stock Insight gives full assist, which means flooring it at a low rpm in a higher gear. That guarantees that the stock Insight will give it all the assist it can give. With the turbo as it stands now (not completed fully) this does NOT happen any longer. It means that somehow the IMA is responding differently than before.

I am trying to explore/learn why and how this different response is happening.

The best example is that if one is cruising in a high gear and knows there is a long huge downhill ahead, one may want to have the battery down at the top of the long hill. Therefore, one may drive in a style to use more assist rather than less as one approaches that known hill. With the reduced assist, the battery stays more full than one would like in such a situation.

That is better for battery life, but it is not the same as the stock Insight in behavior. I would like to understand exactly why, hence my questions.

My curiosity is to explore how the turbo and the IMA interact and understand it better.

For mpg, for example, if the IMA still was used just as much as stock IMA comes on at low rpm, would that mean that you would get even higher mpg than stock because you could extend the time you are in higher gears vs. lower gears? The IMA would pick up the lower rpm torque requests from your foot and then bring you up to the power band of the ICE multplied in oomph by the turbo. This would allow a reduction in downshifting, which typically uses more fuel.

I would like to run this experiment, to see if this would be true. If I can't ever get the IMA behaving like stock at low rpm throttle increases, then I can't ever answer this question. It may be obsessing on the IMA system, but it is interesting.

I wish we had the IMA pulse button! ''

[figgy]

Well, I recorded some data while driving stock Jane with OEM tires around town and found that while her ignition timing advance data ranged over about the same as Edwin's partial turbo install and Yokos, with Jane the dips to the negatives were fewer and very brief. The turbo install with stock exhaust appears to have a similar range, but longer deviations to negatives and more frequent - but under more aggressive driving at times.

Most of the time Jane was in the teens to low 20s with ups and downs around that. Edwin was similar, but more excursions to negatives. Range for both was about -15 to 40 as the extremes.

I'll post more info when the kit is installed completely with proper exhaust and with max boost at 5 lbs.

I only have the palm software, so I can't easily post the raw data or store it. Dang it. Pound the table in anguish. '' Grrr

[b1shmu63]

Figgy, here are my thoughts regarding your experience so far. See if it makes sense.

If the turbo is functioning it effectively creates a positive feedback that is controlled by system losses. (If this was not the case the engine would destroy itself.) One effect of this positive feedback is that the throttle needs less movement to create the same output horsepower/torque. Since the IMA boost is determined in part by the throttle position you should see less IMA assist relative to the output torque. It seems to me that this would be a normal result of boosting the ICE power. This is not necessarily bad for fuel efficiency. It means that the engine is getting more air with the Vtec valve train in its economy mode. This mode creates a better swirl and requires less force to open the valves. Valve train loss is a major factor reducing engine efficiency.

I also think that a less restrictive exhaust will actually lower th turbo lag time and allow the turbo to spin up to a higher RPM at a given engine RPM. The total volume of exhaust created will decrease and the stress on the ICE decrease. This can be proven by analyzing what would happen if the exhaust was further restricted.

Keep us informed. Thanks

Kip