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Old 05-18-2017, 08:56 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Lyger,
I have NOT seen your exhaustive list of things you've tried on your car, so excuse me if this has been covered before, but fuel injection spray pattern was a cause identified by Peter years ago to have made a big difference on one of his older cars.
That sounds very plausible. That would affect the efficiency of the marginal LB process, as well as non LB, and would probably result in a loss of power. Could be one of many reasons for engine roughness.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:57 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin4 View Post
Lyger,
I have NOT seen your exhaustive list of things you've tried on your car, so excuse me if this has been covered before, but fuel injection spray pattern was a cause identified by Peter years ago to have made a big difference on one of his older cars.
This was also the one thing that I did not try to remedy on my first car which was low on power and did not leanbburn well.
As you know, there are services that refurbish them on a mail in basis.
i flow tested the injectors personally as well as checked their pattern, one injector was low on volume so i swapped the injectors from my other car that had already been serviced. before that i had cleaned them outside of the car and replaced the filters. no change in the car though, the main issue i believe is in the oxygen sensor calibration or improper ones being sent to us, i have read up and found plenty of others here who have reported getting P1165 codes even with brand new sensors which should not be happening. of the 3 upstream sensors i had i found 2 different calibration plugs in them, one of my insights had a 6k and one had a 46k sensor in them, though i couldn't determine that as the main issue but it does tell me that there is some discrepancies in the sensors that are going into the cars, the sensor reading even slightly off while in lean burn will obviously cause a lot of issues with how it runs.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I think some of these older high mileage cars are down on ICE power.
I'd go with this theory. Of the 3 Insights I've tested for lean burn, the results are:

-2003 135K: Lean burn worked great! "Like new" compared to the other two.
-2001 210K: Lean burn worked decently. Can sustain 60mph at around 75mpg. In more favorable warmer conditions, can do 65mph with 70mph almost impossible under any conditions.
-2000 290K: Lean burn is crap. Can only do it with slight downhill or in 4th gear. In 5th it can be barely useable one day, completely unusable another day.

What have you guys seen in terms of good lean burn performance year model vs miles? I've seen some 2006 for sale with higher mileage (over 200k) that had really awesome lifetime mpg, and I suspect it's not just number of miles, but also age of vehicle that affects lean burn performance.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:53 PM   #24 (permalink)
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i disagree with that theory, as long as compression is satisfactory.

i can still get over 80mpg on a bone stock 305k mile insight now that i have lean burn actually working. even before i got that resolved i could manage 70+ with a virtually worthless lean burn cycle.

the main issue seems to be that with high mileage engines, a fair amount of items that control it can be out of calibration but only as a whole can they cause it, which is why it took some rather odd methods to cure mine. however i still simply believe i lack a good proper upstream O2 sensor, the only way to know for sure would be to buy one directly from the dealer, but i'm not going down that road after already wasting enough on a brand new upstream sensor, at which time you should also replace the downstream sensor, because i still believe it uses feedback from BOTH sensors for this particular engine during lean burn.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:10 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Lean burn is a synergistic relationship between many components.

Engine design, head design, Air and exhaust flow design.
Spark plug design and indexing.
Fuel injector spray pattern.
Exhaust back pressure.
Primary and secondary O2 sensors.
Ignition Timing.
Egr

etc etc

Everything needs to be perfect to get perfect LB.
One or more dodgy areas and LB is difficult to get or maintain.

Critical IMHO are the 02 sensors, exhaust back pressure (unclogged cat).
Correct indexed plugs.
Good fuel injector misting etc..
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:58 AM   #26 (permalink)
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point is, it doesn't seem to be something like worn out camshaft, crank, sloppy rods, timing chain, etc that is causing the herky jerky issue. it is merely the control system getting out of whack. being that the oxygen sensor does pretty much everything at the end of the line, it seemed most likely, but EGR can also cause the O2 sensor to be fooled if there is EGR being pumped in when there shouldn't be.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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onto another side point that makes sense as well, when i omitted the cats i noticed that the herky jerky got worse which i assumed was due to less backpressure. it might be that the backpressure was part of the reason but now i believe it is also in part that free flowing exhaust disrupts the airflow over the upstream sensor, causing it to lean out the trims too far.

i was advised omitting the cats was helpful, but it was quite the opposite for me. i'm sure everyone has differing results, depending on their cars and what dormant issues they may have. for a CVS it probably would have helped, but not my 5 speed.


yesterday i cleaned the PCV valve because it was rather gunked up, i also blew out the pressure regulator and PCV lines to the intake and cleaned the intake temp sensor. the herky jerky started to come back some but it settled back to semi smooth. little things make big differences in how these engines react.

with lean burn working rather normally now i noticed my city mileage went down but my highway mileage went up, but i also have the EGR disconnected so that probably is one reason for the lower city MPG.
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Last edited by Lyger; 05-24-2017 at 06:19 PM.
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