Thread moved here to avoid confusing insight owners!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
Well I took the plunge and shorted the two pins (a paper clip bent into a u shape and electrical tape wrapped to near the end worked like a charm (cringe, cringe for any electrical purists)). My dash lights lit up like a blinking Christmas tree!
Here is what I got:
IMA light
-12 (one long and two shorts) followed by 15 (one long and 5 shorts)
The 12 from Mike D's P code list for 2000-2004 models equates to P1576 (Motor Drive Module Voltage problem). I can't find a 15 on any of the lists linked in the thread (working on a 03 HCH, not an Insight if it matters). I was getting a P1575, P1679 and P1600 reading when I used the Adv Auto OBDII reader a few days ago. The 1575 is listed as same definition as 1576 except for a 2005-2006 model in Mike D's list. Can't find a P1679 in the list or a 1600. From another source I learned the P1679 is a RSCD Signal Circuit Malfunction, whatever that means (help if you can please).
CEL/MIL light
-78 equating to P1449 (Battery Module Deterioration). It was hard to tell if the blinking was a 78 or a 69 since the seventh blink seemed shorter than the first 6. The next 8 were definitely short blinks. I think 78 since I can't find a 69 in any of the P code listings (but I could not find a 15 either, so....)
ABS
-61 followed by a 51 or maybe it was the other way around (anyone know what that means?)
EPS
-23 (same question?)
So I have some more info by reading the blinking lights. Now I have to figure out if it does me any good to have the info. Anyone have anything you can add that will help me along.
Hopefully what I have done and reported might help someone else who is chasing a problem and wants to use the error blink code method to diagnose.
As an aside I have torn into the behind the seat battery compartment and pulled and reseated every connection and relay I could find and also opened up the MCM box to see if there was any sign of electrical/board damage. Nothing. Also when I first went in and had the 144V battery in the off position the reading across the terminal connections was zero. Turning the switch to on also showed zero volts (this is consistent with the in car battery charge indication of zero!). After rechecking codes with the key on the same codes came up as listed above. Started the car and ran it at 4000 rpms plus for about a minute, with no change. Tested the 144V battery voltage again in the on position and got about 2 plus volts. Locked the car and came in the house. Tomorrow is another day. Somehow I wish I could get the 144V battery charged up via an external source to see if that would kick something off. Anyone know where I can find a 144V NiMH battery charger? I don't think my AA one will do much!
I said may be main fuse & bad battery
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
Thanks very much for the clue.
Where is the fuse located? On the battery itself? Do you have to pull the 144V battery out to see it or to remove it for testing? I looked at the pic of his "supply" that hybrid-battery-repair posted in the other thread and could not really tell where the fuse was located. Is there a different post that has a picture of its location? Will taking an ohm reading across the fuze terminals and looking for infinite tell me it is good or bad? If it is bad, I suppose I should be expecting something else to be bad to cause it to blow (or can an erradict/random voltage surge somehow cause this or perhaps just a defective fuse that decided to give up?).
By the way I am working a 03 HCH, not an Insight in case they have the fuse in a different location.
Thanks again. I'll go looking tomorrow (or should I say today...way past my bedtime)
Fuse is on end of battery near switch assembly. I don't have a civic so can't say for certain but yes you probably have to remove battery to get at it. Yes with the main switch off if you get high R across fuse then it's bad. They can blow for no apparent reason. Several Insights have suffered from blown fuses. RON at hybdrid-battery-repair.com sells them for $10 each. Clearly if it blows again as soon as you fit a new one then "Houston we have a problem"
Thanks for the info and for getting me straight on the forum use. I'll pursue the problem today and report back on results here. Reminds me of Apollo 13 and the 1.3L is the Lunar Module. No real comparison, but it just came to mind when you mentioned "Houston we have a problem".
Thanks for the info and for getting me straight on the forum use. I'll pursue the problem today and report back on results here. Reminds me of Apollo 13 and the 1.3L is the Lunar Module. No real comparison, but it just came to mind when you mentioned "Houston we have a problem".
We sell fuses if need be.
__________________
2000 MT #4227 175K miles - Citrus Yellow, BetterBattery
I removed the 144V battery to get to the 100amp fuse located on the end/back of the battery (too bad it isn't accessable without pulling out the battery,... heavy sucker.) The fuse tested bad and so I ordered a replacement from Hybrid-Battery-Repair. Thanks Mr. Hansen/HBR for the quick service and your excellent pricing.
While I had the battery out I tested the voltage and it read 85 volts.
After replacing the fuse and re-installing everything, I smoke tested by starting the car and whoppee it started with the IMA, started showing some charging (about 4 bars and after the car idled awhile the battery went to full charge (slowly...bar by bar). The charging seemed to be a little intermittent according to the gauge. I was really worried when it would go to zero. All of the blinking codes remained, except for the 12 on the IMA light (makes sense given a 12 is a battery high voltage problem and the fuse must have fixed that). Still getting a 15 blink on the IMA light which I do not know the definition of,...anyone out there know what that is? Removed the OBD connector paperclip short.
Took the car for a test drive and assist, charging and autostop all seemed to be working. Even the AC starting working too (I think this confirms in my mind that the controller shuts down the AC under certain conditions). Must have blown a fuse in the engine compartment somehow along the way and so the radio, keyless entry and of all things the OBDII connector did not work). (another post I read said removing the number 9 fuze reset the IMA even though the number 2 is labeled in the owner's manual as the IMA fuse and the number 9 is labeled "backup". It could be that blowing the 10 amp fuse in the number 9 slot is all related with the IMA/battery charging coming back to life after replacing the 100 amp fuse on the 144V battery).
Drove to Advance Auto to try and use the OBD reader and that was when I discovered the connector was dead (would not recognize the car).
Next day I replaced the number 9 10 amp fuse and was headed to Adv Auto to read the codes for the DTC lights when they went out on their own. Went ahead and read with the reader and showed no codes. Continued to drive and when going up a hill with the AC on the IMA and check eng light came back on. Drove to Adv Auto and read codes. P1600 and P1449 (battery deterioating). Clear the codes and have driving a few miles and it has not come back on ...yet. Everything seems to be working (when in assist the power seems to be a little jerky almost like the ICE is stumbling, ...normal assist behavior for a 5 spd MT?)
So that is an update.
Any suggestions on how I should drive the car to try and "save" the 144V battery? I would like to grid charge it and try to extend its life, but I'm not sure how to go about getting access or buying a charger or the cost. Looking for guidance. Not sure I am ready either to pull the battery and send it off to be balanced, unless I can be convinced that is the least expensive in the long run,...remember the FRAM commericial... pay me now or pay me later.
Thanks to all for your posts. They have been very helpful in getting me to this point and I look forward to your replies.
Any suggestions on how I should drive the car to try and "save" the 144V battery? I would like to grid charge it and try to extend its life, but I'm not sure how to go about getting access or buying a charger or the cost. Looking for guidance. Not sure I am ready either to pull the battery and send it off to be balanced, unless I can be convinced that is the least expensive in the long run,...remember the FRAM commericial... pay me now or pay me later.
Thanks to all for your posts. They have been very helpful in getting me to this point and I look forward to your replies.
Read the various threads on here about grid charging the Insight and chargers, it's pretty much the same for the Civic. Try to power the fan at the same time to keep battery cool. Realistically you will prob need a battery rebuild or repair sooner rather than later. Certainlly a rebuilt battery with new cells should give years of trouble free service. Three people supply chargers now on here ASFAIK. Mike, Ron & Artric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
While I had the battery out I tested the voltage and it read 85 volts.
I suspect you only tested or saw half the battery voltage. The pack is split by the main switch and fuse. The car would not start on the IMA if it truly was only at 85V.
The fuse tested bad and so I ordered a replacement from Hybrid-Battery-Repair. Thanks Mr. Hansen/HBR for the quick service and your excellent pricing.
Thank you for your business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
While I had the battery out I tested the voltage and it read 85 volts.
That's really low as in D E A D and must have been sitting for years. I HIGHLY recommend you charge it up ASAP to 100% SOC (which means either charge the sticks individually with a hobby charger, or use a grid charger), and then trickle the heck out of it (like 6 hours past full).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
Still getting a 15 blink on the IMA light which I do not know the definition of,...anyone out there know what that is?
DTC 15 = P0562 MCM Power Source Unexpected Voltage
Check the #9 backup fuse (10A) in the engine compartment. If it's not blown, then there is a break in the wire from the fuse to the MCM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
Even the AC starting working too (I think this confirms in my mind that the controller shuts down the AC under certain conditions)
Yes. To reduce the load on the engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
Next day I replaced the number 9 10 amp fuse and was headed to Adv Auto to read the codes for the DTC lights when they went out on their own. Went ahead and read with the reader and showed no codes. Continued to drive and when going up a hill with the AC on the IMA and check eng light came back on. Drove to Adv Auto and read codes. P1600 and P1449 (battery deterioating). Clear the codes and have driving a few miles and it has not come back on ...yet.
There are four different P1449 errors. Read your blink codes when the IMA light comes back on. It's possible that it is a deviation and that a good, long trickling will fix it (it's possible that it isn't really bad and is just suffering from voltage depression on a few cells), but driving it right now is damaging the battery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
Looking for guidance. Not sure I am ready either to pull the battery and send it off to be balanced, unless I can be convinced that is the least expensive in the long run,...remember the FRAM commericial... pay me now or pay me later.
Remember that you are within driving distance of us to get it rebalanced, or another 4 hours gets you up to Mike Dabrowski. If you plan to take it up here, please call us first and we'll get the battery bypassed before you leave so that you do no more damage to it on the way here.
__________________
2000 MT #4227 175K miles - Citrus Yellow, BetterBattery
"That's really low as in D E A D and must have been sitting for years. I HIGHLY recommend you charge it up ASAP to 100% SOC (which means either charge the sticks individually with a hobby charger, or use a grid charger), and then trickle the heck out of it (like 6 hours past full)."
RETEPSNIKREP suggested I may have just measure 1/2 the voltage. That might have happened given the construction of the battery output "bars". I just put a meter across one of the bars and the ground connection.
"DTC 15 = P0562 MCM Power Source Unexpected Voltage
Check the #9 backup fuse (10A) in the engine compartment. If it's not blown, then there is a break in the wire from the fuse to the MCM."
Thanks for the definition of "15". Where do you find all of these definitions? I was using Mike D's list and did not see a "15" in it, but that may have just been an Insight list.
"Yes. To reduce the load on the engine."
Does this also happened (AC does not work) when you do a "battery bypass" that you mention below?
"There are four different P1449 errors. Read your blink codes when the IMA light comes back on. It's possible that it is a deviation and that a good, long trickling will fix it (it's possible that it isn't really bad and is just suffering from voltage depression on a few cells), but driving it right now is damaging the battery."
I have the IMA and CEL lights back on now. The IMA is blinking a "78" and the CEL is blinking a "69" (both are quite distinguishable versus before when the IMA was blinking "12" and "15" and the CEL was blinking either a "78" or a "69"...could not be certain which one). Does this tell us which of the four different P1449 errors I have? I have not seen a definition of a "69" anywhere in the posts.
"Remember that you are within driving distance of us to get it rebalanced, or another 4 hours gets you up to Mike Dabrowski. If you plan to take it up here, please call us first and we'll get the battery bypassed before you leave so that you do no more damage to it on the way here.
"
Would you please provide the procedure for doing a battery bypass? I would like to bypass it now so I can continue to drive is some and not destroy the 144V battery. You have my email from my previous order of the fuses if you do not want to post the procedure here.
How is the BetterBattery coming? Would a trade-in of my battery (or rebuilding using my battery case with the better cells) be a possibility? Or a less expensive, longer term solution than just rebalancing an 8 yr old battery pack?
I also need to trade off the cost of shipping versus a drive to NY (5hrs) and probably an overnight stay (at least probably more unless leave the car and make a return trip maybe via train) to do even a rebalance and 6 hr plus trickle.
What do you think?
Thanks.
Also, thanks to retepsnikrep for your post and help.
Forum keeps logging me out so this use of quotes is a little abnormal (still learning the tools available, but I think this will work).
Ok, I went back and read the Reading Blinking Lights thread (specifically the 12/10 post)and now see what the "78" on the IMA light blinking is one of four listed...
"P1449 [78] Battery module deterioration:
Possibly looks at voltage deviation, and overall capacity. "
Still have the question as to what the "69" on the CEL blinking light is.
"
Would you please provide the procedure for doing a battery bypass? I would like to bypass it now so I can continue to drive is some and not destroy the 144V battery. You have my email from my previous order of the fuses if you do not want to post the procedure here.
Follow my directions to open the battery lid and then unplug the BCM (leave the battery switch off).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
How is the BetterBattery coming? Would a trade-in of my battery (or rebuilding using my battery case with the better cells) be a possibility? Or a less expensive, longer term solution than just rebalancing an 8 yr old battery pack?
I just read your follow-up. 78 is typically a "replace 3/4 of the pack" error. A BetterBattery isn't that much more and will give you a significantly better battery, plus there's no waiting. As far as your old pack, we need you to trade it in, as it will become the next customer's pack. There is no cost savings to you if we give you back your housing, and it will delay it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnVirginia
I also need to trade off the cost of shipping versus a drive to NY (5hrs) and probably an overnight stay (at least probably more unless leave the car and make a return trip maybe via train) to do even a rebalance and 6 hr plus trickle.
A. We can get it mostly charged in an hour and then trickle for six while you go tour Manhattan. Arrive in the morning and drive home in the evening.
B. We can fit you with a bypass board and let you go home and come back.
C. A BetterBattery install is 45 minutes.
__________________
2000 MT #4227 175K miles - Citrus Yellow, BetterBattery
"Follow my directions to open the battery lid and then unplug the BCM (leave the battery switch off)."
If I remember correctly there are five connecters, not counting the ground, that must be disconnected when removing the battery (remember this is a 03 Honda Civic, not an Insight). Three (smaller ones) are grouped together at the top, another is a larger that must be removed from a hanger before disconnecting, and one is a mid-sized one that plugs down into the control box. Which one(s) should be disconnected to "unplug the BCM"? I assume you mean to unplug the connecter and also leave the battery switch in the off position?
"I just read your follow-up. 78 is typically a "replace 3/4 of the pack" error. A BetterBattery isn't that much more and will give you a significantly better battery, plus there's no waiting. As far as your old pack, we need you to trade it in, as it will become the next customer's pack. There is no cost savings to you if we give you back your housing, and it will delay it."
I'm giving that option serious consideration. But, in order to do the mental tradeoffs...
"A. We can get it mostly charged in an hour and then trickle for six while you
go tour Manhattan. Arrive in the morning and drive home in the evening."
This would give me the one time fix possibly, but without the grid charger perhaps not a long lasting solution. What is the cost to do the one hour charge and trickle? How much more for a maintenance charger? This would be the choice if I decide to see how long this original battery will last.
"B. We can fit you with a bypass board and let you go home and come back."
Do you sell these boards and if so for how much? Does it just plug in to the appropriate connectors and could be mounted in the behind the seat space?
"C. A BetterBattery install is 45 minutes.
"
How much if I come there and have a BetterBattery installed (and you keep my old battery)"
How much if you ship me a BetterBattery and I return ship you the old battery (either you pay both ways shipping, if less expensive that way, or whatever combination gives the least shipping costs)? Would this include the maintenance charger? If not, same price for one as under option A?
Is the "69" error on the CEL real? If so, do you know what it means? Eli suggested I use an OBDII reader and see what codes are given. I plan to today, but expect the generic P1600 (see your Honda dealer!) or something to that effect.
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JohnVirginina HCH Civic Problems
