Gen 1 Insight to HCH?

[BrianZ54]

I'm thinking about switching from a Gen 1 CVT Insight to a Civic Hybrid sometime next year. I have a few questions and like others, I didn't really find a dedicated HCH forum anywhere. It seems like there are several folks on here who own (or have owned) both models. I've backtracked through the older posts so my list 25 questions has been answered down to just a few. I'll rattle them off and hope for the best. Thanks in advance!

I see reference to Gen 1 and Gen 2. What model year does the HCH Gen 2 begin? And is one recommended over the other? Can Hybrid Battery Repair refurbish Gen 2 packs?

I see some pretty good mpg numbers represented but I wonder: Is the "sweet spot" for optimum mileage any different (higher) than an Insight? I'm asking because I know my Gen 1 CVT's optimum mileage usually occurs between 45-55 mph and I'm hoping for a little more speed.

Are there any chronic repair issues or recurring problems identified? I haven't seen any word on any deal breakers in the other posts.

Thanks, Brian

[timny1984]

Hi Brian,

I suppose i did almost exactly what you are thinking of doing. While i still have my CVT, I bought a 2005 MT for my winter car, and recently i've picked up a MT insight.

Well to start i believe the HCH I started in 2002-2005. and HCH II is from 2006 till now...

HCH I came in CVT or MT models both models were sold with and without lean burn. that's the different between ULEV and AT-PZEV.

As for issues with the car since they are basically the same as the normal civic i believe there really aren't to many issues that can come up.

The speed for best MPG's is still the 45-55 range. but it depends on what numbers you are shooting for. Since getting a MT insight i've been driving around 5mph faster and still i'm about 15-20% better mpgs. I can't say for sure what numbers you can expect to get, i averaged 52mpg on snow tires in the winter time. The summer tires the car came with aren't LRR. i still have touched above 76mpg once in the summer. but i only drove around 600 miles this summer with it. Most of those miles with a canoe on top, which the car hated with a passion. ( Winter car (Honda Civic) | Fuelly )

As for the battery, HBR can chime in on that. I know the Gen I works with the BetterBattery, and he also can rebuild them. As for the Gen II he'll have to let you know.

Personally if you want higher numbers go with a Gen I HCH MT with lean burn. Any other questions feel free to fire away.

Tim

[BrianZ54]

Great info Tim, that's what I was hoping for. I'll hope for HBR to pick up on the battery query or I'll email Ron. Mileage looks great on the MT, just not certain I want to buy another 8 year old car to hang on to the Gen 1. I can understand the need for a Winter car in WNY, I lived in the Buffalo area for 50 years. Need a tad more ground clearence and weight when the snow hits. The Gen 1 is actually pretty good in the winter weather here, typical overnight snowfall might be 1-4 inches.

Sounds like lean burn was not offered in the Gen 2, correct?

Thanks very much,
Brian

[samwichse]

I also recently was "forced" to go from an Insight to an HCH (7 mph wreck "totalled" my car).

I went for a 1st gen HCH for two main reasons:

1) This is the only one available with a manual transmission. If you've driven one your whole life and can't stomach having to drive auto day-in and day-out, this is the main factor. I did notice MT HCHs tended to carry a small premium over the CVT models just like in the Insight.

2) BetterBattery availability... I wanted to make sure I could get a replacement, brand new battery immediately if the car I purchased had a failure. I have also noticed when buying an HCH, the technical expertise (or lack thereof) of the owners means no one knows what the battery's history is. This also means you can usually get a first gen slightly cheaper than a well-equipped non-hybrid version of the same year.

3) Old is cheaper . I just added this one 'cause it's obvious, but the age didn't bother me much because unlike the Insight, there are a lot more of these on the road, hugely more when you take the non-hybrids into account, so parts OEM and aftermarket are plentiful.

4) MT behavior is almost identical to the Insight, so I didn't have much adjustment from all the learning I did there.

I would also like to say, it would be awesome to see someone shoehorn a 1st gen HCH engine into a 1st gen Insight. It could still have all the hybrid part intact, and would make the Insight really peppy and still make ridiculously good mileage.

Also: I've only had mine about 1.5 months, but so far I've made 53.3 mpg over 2k miles. I averaged 72mpg in the Insight this time of year, so be prepared for a ~20 mpg loss.

Also: your speed losses will be greater than the Insight, as it's less aerodynamic and has a larger frontal area.

Sam

EDIT: I agree that there should be a forum on here... the other HCH forums on the internet are a bunch of non-technical people guessing back and forth or asking questions like "what kind of fart can can I stick on there?" I would love to have even a subforum to go to here (although one could basically call the Other Honda Hybrids forum that already).

[timny1984]

Buffalo area you say? I grew up in Amherst and now i'm out in Rochester commuting to Clarence for work (moving back asap!) Yep no Lean Burn on the gen II sadly. I can't really say anything about the gen II as i have not actually driven or rode or even sat in one. I would guess they are pretty nice.

1-4 inches? you mean a dusting... haha kidding ( kinda ). I've never driven the insight in the winter, but I imagine with snow tires i could drive through just about anything. It was my first winter commuting such a distance and i was alittle nervous about how it would be so i got the HCH. This winter i will be driving my new insight on days i know it's not going to snow. it was 69 here yesterday, 70 the day before... 39 today

Before buying my HCH I only have driven stick 1 time (for a whole 1/4 mile at most). I didn't test drive it (rode with the owner) and after I came back and paid for the car, I jumped in and drove it 90 miles home (after a few stalls ). I picked the MT w/ LB because i wanted the most mpgs i could get since I'm driving 120 miles round trip to work. I've been hoping my battery craps out soon since i'm at 73k miles (80k warranty), and the SOC moves around alot during my drive. i guess the extra 600 pounds really uses alot more assist and/or my battery is pretty weak.

Personally I think the interior of the car is nice, power windows, locks, decent speakers/cd player, nice seats, smooth ride, good rear defroster, and cruise control. Most people that have an HCH aren't really as into it like the insighters, the guy i bought it from said they were getting about 35mpg, so i know they weren't driving it "correctly". He also said the SOC is normally around 50% and is never full, another indication it wasn't driven to it's max potential.


Tim

[samwichse]

Pro tip: the brake switch is easily adjustable, all you have to do is turn the collar. Mine came from the factory not regening until the physical brakes were actually starting to contact, but I adjusted the contact point out so that just the tiniest touch starts full regen like in the Insight.

[jerrydelrey]

I have both the G1 insight and HCH2.

Model year for Gen 2 Civic Hybrid starts at 2006.

MPG will depend on your driving style and routes. On my G1 i get 58-60 MPG. On my HCH2 I get 38-40 MPG. My average is less average in this forum.

Only issue I have with my HCH2 is the sunvisor. It is spliting in half. Still useable, but annoying. There was a lawsuit on it, and now Honda will replace it if you bring it in.

I also recieved a recall on the DC-DC converter, something about the headlights going out. I still have not brought it in for servicing.

The HCH2 does not have lean burn, but is does have 3 stage VTEC. I goes something like this.
1) regular
2) engine off (can go all electric). ICE is still connected, the valves are all shut or open, i forgot. It's not using gas just electric. My opinion i doesn't work to good. Prius all electric is better.
3) highspeed cuising (the throttle opens all the way, and engine rpm is controlled another way). Not Lean burn, but it removes the engine drag at freeway speeds. here is a link:

Information About Honda's 2006 Civic Hybrid : TreeHugger

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by BrianZ54

I'm thinking about switching from a Gen 1 CVT Insight to a Civic Hybrid sometime next year. I have a few questions and like others, I didn't really find a dedicated HCH forum anywhere. It seems like there are several folks on here who own (or have owned) both models. I've backtracked through the older posts so my list 25 questions has been answered down to just a few. I'll rattle them off and hope for the best. Thanks in advance!

I see reference to Gen 1 and Gen 2. What model year does the HCH Gen 2 begin? And is one recommended over the other? Can Hybrid Battery Repair refurbish Gen 2 packs?

HCH Gen-I is 2003-2005
HCH Gen-II is 2006-2011

We sell Gen-I BetterBattery modules (144V) for $1800
We sell Gen-II BetterBattery modules (158V) for $2000

Originally Posted by BrianZ54

Are there any chronic repair issues or recurring problems identified? I haven't seen any word on any deal breakers in the other posts.

The batteries. They fail at much higher rates than the Gen-I.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by timny1984

As for the battery, HBR can chime in on that. I know the Gen I works with the BetterBattery, and he also can rebuild them. As for the Gen II he'll have to let you know.

We can, but they're almost universally shot. P0A7F errors are not that fixable. That's why we offer a BetterBattery.

[samwichse]

Any ideas WHY the HCH is harder on its batteries?

I do notice I have to baby mine a bit more to keep it from using up the battery, and that if I'm sitting at idle stop/go for a long time in the rain, the headlights/all 12v systems seem to draw down the HV battery (I've seen it fall two notches just sitting a long time in a traffic snarl).