Repeated IMA battery replacements

[luisgomes]

Hi,

I've had a 2000 Insight for 10 years, with 62k miles. Three years ago I had to replace the IMA battery. It was under warranty, so it was free. A year later, it had to be replaced again. It was still under warranty, so it was still free. I asked them what the root cause of the problem was but they didn't know.

Now, according to my local dealer it needs to be replaced again and they're asking for over 4,000 dollars, since it's no longer under warranty.

The service reps at the dealer have never been able to tell me why I'm having to replace the IMA battery so often. Now that I'm really pressing them on it, and I'm pissed off, they're telling me that it's because I don't drive the car enough for the battery to be properly charged (62k miles in 10 years). I drive the car to work every weekday (22 miles roundtrip) and I've never been more than 2 weeks without driving it.

Does this make any sense at all? I'm furious with them for this explanation, and for their expectation that I should sink 4,000 dollars every couple of years, apparently, without them even being able to tell me how many miles I'm supposed to be driving. Has anyone had any similar experiences?

Thanks,
Luis

[Eli]

As I was reading your post, I read "I've had a 2000 Insight for 10 years, with 62k miles", and was about to say - there's your problem. That is indeed the root cause of a lot of premature IMA battery failures, not driving enough or letting the car sit.

However......

So the first battery lasted you 7 years, the second 1 year and the third 2 years?

Are you SURE that your usage patterns haven't changed from that first 7 year period to this most recent period?

If so, it does seem a little anomalous. Quite anomalous, actually.

That said, don't be mad at the dealer, even though they deserve it overall - they don't know why your battery failed anymore than we do, and we can usually give you a better answer than the dealership can. Dealerships don't know about nor do they care about our little cars. They're utterly worthless, except for warranty repairs. You've come to the right place overall, but we will likely never be able to tell you exactly why your batteries have failed.

Replacement batteries from Honda are Refurbished. This does not mean "rebuilt", it means that the cases are re-used and filled with New, but Old Stock cells.

There is anecdotal evidence, which your case supports, that these New Old Stock cells aren't lasting as long as they once were. It is unfortunate.

It is likely that you could have made your first battery replacement last considerably longer than 1 year with a grid charger. A grid charger is a necessary investment for any Insight owner, IMO. The degradation of a 120 series cell battery pack is inevitable, but maintenance grid charges will go a long way towards maintaining battery health.

Absolutely do not spend $4000 at the dealership. It is likely that you can continue driving the car for some time to come with a grid charger. Unfortunately, they're all sold out, but if Mike(99mpg.com) has enough interest, he will make another batch.

Look into the BetterBattery. This is a brand new, higher capacity, more robust battery pack available for our cars that should far outlast the feeble Honda battery, especially with maintenance grid charges. The cost of this battery is $2000 - half of what a dealership will typically charge.

I'm sure this post will raise more questions than it answers, but feel free to post them.

[kennysmith]

It is also possible that you live near someone with a grid charger who would assist you. Add your location to your signature line as there might be help available.

[joecvt]

The newer controllers for the IMA should have already been replaced in the first warranty replacement 3 years ago and if not, should have been replaced in the second warranty replaced only a year later.

Here is the important part you need to tell Honda. Now that it is out of warranty, they can not FORCE you to replace the controllers again. Your cost from the dealership should not be $4000 because those controllers that are replaced under the warranty replacements are also expensive.

Go back to them and ask just for a price on the IMA battery itself and specifically mention not to include the BCM and the MCM controllers or any ECM firmware upgrade. You are only interested in replacing the battery pack and see how much difference in price. The total cost will probably be half ($2000)

Once you get that price, see if they will split the cost out of your pocket since you do drive the car nearly on a daily basis and it does have low miles on the car. See what they say (no harm in asking).

But don't let them tell you it is a $4000 repair because it is about $1500 for the battery and some cost to install it.

If you a able to replace the battery yourself, you may want to forget Honda take a look at the "BetterBattery" being sold by Ron at Hybrid Battery Repair (HBR) on this forum. If you want one, there seems to be a wait before you recieve it though.

I do understnad that not everyone may want to take on a project of installing a battery yourself. It is a bit more involved than changing the 12v up front.

Related to another post, this is why people are getting upset at Honda for replacement costs of batteries. There is no need to charge this guy double for parts that he already has in his car. Only one part is "defective" but Honda is trying to make him buy all parts that were included in the warranty item list. Just like the lady suing over bad MPG, people are going to start suing Honda for charging extra for parts not needed.

This happens over and over to people I read about in this forum. Imagine the people paying Honda $4000 for the repair that are not members of this forum. I understand the IMA is considered expensive but telling people they also need to replace the BCM and MCM (when they were recently replaced under warranty) is something that people may start suing over.

This job could be done by Honda for about half the cost quoted.

Please go back to Honda with this info and report back what they tell you.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner

[Eli]

The battery retails for $2700 from Honda, or at least it did in 2008 when the previous owner of Insight #2 bought a battery out of pocket(have receipt) and had it installed for an additional $300. Everything else is spot on, and it makes me really angry that they do that to people. Dealerships seem to be no better than the shady mechanic on the corner, it's upsetting because we expect better. Or at least, I do.

[joecvt]

I thought I was reading somewhere on this forum about a year ago that someone purchased an IMA battery pack (just the pack) from Honda for $1500....They even had pictures of it of how it arrived within the thread.

I was thinking back then that the price of just the IMA pack went down (from the $3,000 range) so if the battery failed on me, it would not cost as much as I once thought back in 2004 when my car was nearly new. No Battery has failed on me yet but knock on wood since I now have 3 Insights.

My 2003 blue Insight (CVT) I have owned since 4,800 (less than 5K) and is still on the original battery with 114,000 on the odometer now. I have never had an IMA light or even a recal or quick drop or increase in SOC. Seems to be pretty good to me still and assist (when needed in mountainous regions) lasts a long time without dropping the SOC much.

My 2004 red Insight (CVT) I have owned since 181,000 and had the battery replaced under warranty by the previous owner @ 105K miles and has been ok with me since May of last year and I drive this one around the most. I do get a couple of recals on this one (not often - only 3 times since May) but never an IMA light. In fact, never seeing a recal in the blue Insight, I was wondering what the heck was going on. I told my friend who was in the car with me, "I think this is a recal that I keep on reading about in the forums."

My 2001 black and blue (MT) Insight I just picked up in the begining of November and is not registered for on the road yet. It has new unpainted body panels when I picked it up so that is why it is black and blue That battery was replaced by the previous owner out of warranty about 100K miles ago and I don't really know if it is ok but I have not had a chance to really check it out. I will probably do that in the Spring. For now, every week, I perform an MCM reset (by pulling fuse 1 and then start the car to charge the battery at idle until the SOC increases to full. I figure that this is a way to keep the battery sticks from varying too far apart while waiting for Spring.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner

[luisgomes]

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for all of your help. I've learned a lot more from a few minutes of reading your responses than what I got out of multiple conversations with the service reps at the dealer.

Some additional information:

My location is Austin, Texas (in case there are any grid chargers out there). My current mileage is 64300, my lifetime mpg is 65.5.

I was a bit off with my service history. My battery replacements were actually as follows:

first replacement: 41869 miles (6 years, 9 months after purchase)
second replacement: 52833 miles (exactly 2 years later)
third replacement (now): 64623 miles (exactly 2 years later)

The first replacement coincided with a replacement of the ECM, prompted by a recall letter I received in connection with sb 07-038. But the battery was also bad (the IMA light was on, P1447 and P1601) and so they replaced it at the same time.

The second replacement was triggered by another IMA light (P1600 and P1601).

I don't know what the current code is, but they tell me that it indicates that the IMA battery is bad again.

In all cases, the appearance of the IMA light was preceded by a few weeks of erratic behavior of the battery level indicator: it would spike very high and very low for no apparent reason. And this time around, I drove it long enough with the IMA light on that the battery stopped working altogether (no bars on the charge indicator, no charge, no assist, no auto-stop).

Per your advice, I've asked the dealer whether they'd be willing to replace just the battery, without the control modules. They were non-committal about it. I probably have to speak directly to Honda about that. They did quote me Honda's retail price for the battery pack: it was something like 2,300 dollars.

My driving habits have not changed at all, in terms of how much I drive (22 miles every weekday, plus occasional weekend driving. No real long intercity trips). And my driving style hasn't really changed either, at least not after the first few months of owning the car. So, for some reason the first battery lasted 7 years, and the next two only last 2 years each! Is there some known problem with the re-manufactured batteries?

Also, the dealer keeps insisting that driving 22 miles a day is insufficient. I even got them to put this down in writing. But they won't tell me how many miles a day would be "sufficient". This is what's most galling to me. Does anyone here know if Honda has ever made any statement about this? It seems wildly irresponsible to market a car that must be driven a certain unknown number of miles each day, not tell you, and then expect you to shell out 4,000 bucks every 2 years if you don't.

Finally, the one piece of advice that the dealer did give me was to try to reinitialize my battery level gauge, by running the motor for a few minutes with the EPS fuse removed. I did this yesterday and it did do something -- the battery did come to life. I then drove it for about 5 miles or so to test it, and the battery is working, and the IMA light and Check Engine lights went away, but the battery level indicator isn't right: it seems to be stuck in the full position. So I doubt that the battery will continue working for very long.

Luis

Austin, Texas
2000 Insight, since 3/2001
64K miles
65.5 mpg

[gilbertguy]

Pull the negative off of the 12V battery for a couple of seconds and then hook it up and run the engine around 2,500 rpm. This will force more power into the battery, do this a couple of times in a row, also you are right this is just a temporary help. Might prolong the IMA light for awhile, also I've never heard or read anything from Honda saying how many miles a day you need to drive this car but it is a well known fact that the battery does not like the vehicle sitting for days/weeks at a time. Normally if you drive it every day the battery does much better.