IMA Second Time Around and I'm Pissed!

[rfbassi]

I am new to the site but have Voyeuristically watched and read for a while.

OK I have reached the frustration point with Honda USA and now throw myself upon the good graces and knowledge base of the Insight Gurus.

1. 2000 Insight, Manual, 113,000 Miles, all service done on time, driving in the Washington DC metro area, approximately 70 miles per day r/t to DC from Northern Virginia. Every two months trip to Raleigh, NC, 600 R/T.

2. Replaced Battery Pack under warranty at 92,000 miles in 2009.

3. 3 weeks ago IMA light came on, then a week later the CEL light. Watched the charge gauge go up down up down then down for good. Brought it in to dealer for codes – it’s the 1447 and 1449.

4. Dealer tells me the battery needs to be replaced. I’m incensed, you just put one in 20K and 2.5 years ago. The BS starts. "Well sometimes they wear out because of the driver." I tell them don’t even start that crap with me. Call Honda regional.

5. They (Honda Regional) tell me they’ll “assist” with $200 off - $2400 to do it.

6. I contact Honda USA. I tell them I believe that a defective or less than optimum replacement battery pack was put in as warranty work. That I know they are using NOS (or refurbished) that could have been manufactured up to 10 years ago and that this was a premature, albeit out of warranty, failure.

7. Honda USA takes 3 days to get back – answer TOO BAD.

8. I tell them they are not standing behind their product and it is unreasonable for that replacement battery to have failed in that time period. The Honda USA BS begins. “Too bad. That’s your opinion, you have no facts that it failed because of poor quality parts, we stand behind our product that’s why the battery was replaced the first time, your expectation that it should have lasted longer is your expectation and your opinion.” They got righteous indignation when I said this was all BS and that regardless of the fact that it was put in for free under warranty the expectation was that it would perform similarly as a new battery – this has not occurred. Little lady on the phone was sticking to corporate line and losing her customer service composure.

I said I think that with all the publicity they do about how good their product is and the quality of Honda that this and many other similar failures is bad and I would find a way to let people know not to buy a Honda hybrid if they are worried about batteries – least they have the battery fail and Honda walk away from it – yes even out of warranty when they just put a new one in under warranty. Of course I got the “do what you want.” I also intimated that when these came out Honda implied that the batteries would last the life of the car and thereby part of the reason for the additional warranty. She almost had apoplexy when I said that. I also told her that the NOS was the problem and with 120 cells in the pack some are bound not to be optimal and will throw the whole system off and create an imbalance that will continue to perpetuate itself until the system shuts down (that’s my layman’s take from what I have been reading from you guys).

So now that I have vented I have several questions for the Insight Masters.

a. Since the first light came on and the CEL followed with the charge/discharge lights and battery levels stopped registering – I have driven the car about 400 miles. The car seems to drive the same – the MPGs are about the same (or am I imagining slightly better). Assist actually seems like it is there? How long can I continue to drive this way? When the red battery light finally comes on how long to do I have before full death?

Is the battery pack really dead being only 2.5 years old and 20K?

b. In the DC area what are my best options besides giving in to Honda and letting the dealer do it for their $200 discount? About $2500.

c. Is there a higher Corporate Authority than the customer service hack I spoke with at Honda USA?

d. Has anyone ever sued in Small Claims (David and Goliath) court not on the basis of warranty (which is clear) but rather what public perception and expectations about their Hybrid products Honda puts the public mind and what a reasonable and prudent consumer would expect. For example – it is reasonable to expect that Honda would replace the battery under warranty and its reasonable to expect that the replacement battery would/should perform similarly – because we are talking about Honda and the Corporate public image they portray. I’ll bet that Honda does not have near the numbers of 20,000 mile 2 year failures in its original releases as it does with their warranty replacement. Something stinks.

Any "Insight" would be appreciated. The car is vital in one of the top worst daily commutes in the country (I get high occupancy exemption to travel down fast lanes)

[dls1981dustin]

I feel your pain. My 03 Insight MT has 45k on it and is currently on its 3rd battery pack. The lack of use/sitting is really very hard on it. That may have helped contribute to why your battery has failed after only 2.5 years. I wouldnt think 20k miles in 2.5 years is alot of use. I am guilty too of not driving my car enough. I average about 12k a year on it. I guess at this point my advice would be to contact some ppl that have used grid chargers to help remedy this issue without actually replacing the battery. It seems as quite a few ppl have had sucess in re-balancing their degrated battery pack by this technique. May be able to find some local to loan you one.......

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by rfbassi

1. 2000 Insight, Manual, 113,000 Miles, all service done on time, driving in the Washington DC metro area, approximately 70 miles per day r/t to DC from Northern Virginia. Every two months trip to Raleigh, NC, 600 R/T.

2. Replaced Battery Pack under warranty at 92,000 miles in 2009.

3. 3 weeks ago IMA light came on, then a week later the CEL light. Watched the charge gauge go up down up down then down for good. Brought it in to dealer for codes – it’s the 1447 and 1449.

That's now four people in two weeks that report low-life warranty packs after getting good life out of the first one. I believe all four were replaced 2009-2010. One of three things is going on:

1. The cells are NOS and NOS doesn't last
2. The cells are culled from failed batteries and don't last.
3. The upgraded BCM kills the batteries.

#2 would explain why Honda bought a refurbished battery from us in 2009.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by rfbassi

a. Since the first light came on and the CEL followed with the charge/discharge lights and battery levels stopped registering – I have driven the car about 400 miles. The car seems to drive the same – the MPGs are about the same (or am I imagining slightly better). Assist actually seems like it is there? How long can I continue to drive this way? When the red battery light finally comes on how long to do I have before full death?

It's hard to say. Minimum 3 months.

Originally Posted by rfbassi

Is the battery pack really dead being only 2.5 years old and 20K?

It's really messed up. It's likely to be a mix of good and bad. In your case, I'd recommend a repair be attempted before writing it off. (How much good and bad will determine the repairability). Be warned though, every day you drive it damages it more. Give me a call to discuss your options.

Originally Posted by rfbassi

b. In the DC area what are my best options besides giving in to Honda and letting the dealer do it for their $200 discount? About $2500.

We only charge $2000 for a BetterBattery + $200 for the install and it's a NEW battery (not NOS). The cells haven't even come off the production line yet.

Originally Posted by rfbassi

The car is vital in one of the top worst daily commutes in the country (I get high occupancy exemption to travel down fast lanes)

You can bypass your battery to get by until your next inspection.

[Hybrid-Battery-Repair]

Originally Posted by dls1981dustin

I am guilty too of not driving my car enough. I average about 12k a year on it.

Remember that amount of driving is not the key. Frequency of driving is. 20 miles per day is excellent.

[rfbassi]

Thanks Hybrid Battery Repair - If I am going to have to spend money to replace the pack I'll be damn if I give any money to Honda.

What is your lead time on getting the pack?

[Willie Williford]

6 weeks minimum,,,,,,,,,

Willie

[Hugh-Falls]

Originally Posted by Hybrid-Battery-Repair

That's now four people in two weeks that report low-life warranty packs after getting good life out of the first one. I believe all four were replaced 2009-2010. One of three things is going on:

1. The cells are NOS and NOS doesn't last
2. The cells are culled from failed batteries and don't last.
3. The upgraded BCM kills the batteries.

#2 would explain why Honda bought a refurbished battery from us in 2009.

Ron, make that five people with a recently failed low-life warranty pack.

The reason: I believe it is Number Two above and it may also be #2, the colloquial designation for what the replacement battery packs are. I believe that the QUALITY of each individual replacement battery pack Honda furnishes is based on the amount of warranty responsibility they have left case by case. The replacement battery pack they provided me outlasted the remaining car warranty by less than five months (ten months after installation).

I don't believe in the folk legend about the mythical "New Old Stock" cells. I believe the replacement batteries are reworked FAILED/USED battery packs made up of accumulated used serviceable cells graded as to their expected survival potential and are doled out specifically in each case to outlast the specific car's remaining warranty. As the supply of these Frankenstein reworked Gen1 batteries continues to decrease, the quality of the replacement packs will continue to deteriorate. See Ron's comment above. The bean counters at Honda are probably sitting around with their fingers crossed hoping that the supply of reworked batteries will outlast the warranty demands.

From the looks of things, the warranty problem for the Gen1 Insights is rapidly approaching a crisis for Honda and in the next 4 or 5 years maybe the newer Insight owners may get a break on truly "new" replacement cells in their reworked warranty battery pack replacements but I wouldn't hold my breath. It will be interesting to watch how they will manage to weasel out of their responsibilities.

[Jivko57]

You can count me as the sixth person, I bought my car in Nov 2009 , out of warranty, as per previous owner the battery was replaced in the summer off 2008 when the car was close to the 150k mark. By the next summer the new battery had failed. By that time it was out of warranty due to mileage. A charger keeps it performing OK (I cannot complain as I never saw how "a good" battery does...)

But would agree with #2 above as if the original battery was good for 7.5 years, how come the replacement lasted only 1 year or less?

one thing in support for the new BCM theory though.

Before I started overnight charging the IMA would give a little assist- several seconds , SOC would fall from full to 18 bars and the car would start force charging, the next attempt for assist would bring a recal....

[Eli]

We'll likely never know regarding where replacement packs and such come from, whether they're rebuilt using returned packs or the cells are NOS, or what.

My pack was replaced in early 2010 and after only 1.5 years was showing signs of deterioration. It hasn't been being used, but it is likely that trend would have continued. It is unfortunate.