Manual Transmission problem

thejackyll · 02-06-2012, 10:48 PM

Hello all,

My 2000 MT Insight is experiencing the seemingly common problem of the syncro-mesh grinding when downshifting into second gear.

I have looked around on this forum somewhat and found that there are many who have experienced this problem but I am having trouble finding someone who has fixed it satisfactorily.

Does anyone have the specifics on this problem as far as what exactly needs to be purchased and installed to fix the problem? I may be interested in doing the work myself if I can be sure that I know what needs to be done. I am not into troubleshooting when the car is apart. Ideally, the engine in my car would be apart for about two days once I start the process.

Thank you for any referrals and information.

Nathan

Eli · 02-06-2012, 11:33 PM

It's a common problem, like you've said.

The problem actually isn't the synchronizers. It's the clocking tabs. They essentially have an engineering flaw. When the edges wear down, the clocking tab rides up and to put it as someone else did, effectively becomes an anti-synchronizer. When it rides up, it prevents the synchronizer from doing it's job, and you get grind.

The easiest thing to do is just live with it. Learn to double clutch. The transmission in #3 is quite worn, but I still downshift into 2nd religiously(something like 6 times on my short 2 mile commute to work), and only grind once in a great while when my game is off.

If you actually want to fix it properly, you have to buy new gear sets. $$$$. When we bought Insight #2, the transmission was grindy - and had been for over 200,000 miles. Since my fiancee would be driving it, I elected to put a used transmission into the car. This cost about $700.

Finally, if you want to go the experimental route, you can grind the clocking tabs off. Or half of them, or something. I don't really remember the specifics, I'll see if I can find the thread, lol.

dls1981dustin · 02-06-2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli

It's a common problem, like you've said.

The problem actually isn't the synchronizers. It's the clocking tabs. They essentially have an engineering flaw. When the edges wear down, the clocking tab rides up and to put it as someone else did, effectively becomes an anti-synchronizer. When it rides up, it prevents the synchronizer from doing it's job, and you get grind.

The easiest thing to do is just live with it. Learn to double clutch. The transmission in #3 is quite worn, but I still downshift into 2nd religiously(something like 6 times on my short 2 mile commute to work), and only grind once in a great while when my game is off.

If you actually want to fix it properly, you have to buy new gear sets. $$$$. When we bought Insight #2, the transmission was grindy - and had been for over 200,000 miles. Since my fiancee would be driving it, I elected to put a used transmission into the car. This cost about $700.

Finally, if you want to go the experimental route, you can grind the clocking tabs off. Or half of them, or something. I don't really remember the specifics, I'll see if I can find the thread, lol.

Is there any prevenative maintaince that can be done to prevent this issue from happining if a transmission has not experienced this problem yet? EX: changing fluid more often, using a synthetic, ect..........? Or is it just a un-stopable wear item that nothing can prevent?

Eli · 02-06-2012, 11:51 PM

No.. It has to do with how you shift, how you treat the transmission. That is all.

Unfortunately I don't really know the specific cause. Being gentle is probably the order of the day. But what's the fun in that?

**jeff652** · 02-07-2012, 01:19 AM

I am doing this repair for someone in Sunnyvale next month. I have been rebuilding Honda transmissions for over a decade. I have done the Insight trans repair twice already and will have done it two more times (both with new OEM parts and the 'clocking tab removal' method) by April first.

I am in San Jose - if you are interested in just 'having it done' my prices are much better than any shop. PM me if you decide not to do it yourself and would like to discuss.

Thanks,
Jeff

jimrm · 02-07-2012, 07:29 AM

Here is the link to more details on removal of the clocking tabs on 1st and 2nd gear synchros. Pictures and Tips From My 5 Speed Input Shaft Bearing Replacement

thejackyll · 02-07-2012, 08:15 PM

Thank you all for the help. I am looking over options. I don't grind too often so it is good to know that the problem can just be ignored for a while.

dwrede · 02-24-2012, 04:13 PM

I bought my Gen1 about a year ago, and the only problem I have found has been the second gear downshift grind. As suggested, for $3k for the car, figured I could live with it. Now have another 10K miles on the car and just turned 200K. I have learn that the first gear downshift is ok, I can start to push it into first to spin down the gears without letting out on the clutch and then pull it back into second works just like an upshift, so letting me use second without a grind. My only concern, am I prematurely wearing something else out in using this first gear technique? I keep reading about this double clutching (I have heard of truckers using it). What "in detail" is that technique? Just pushing the clutch in twice doesn't do any good, so what am I missing? Thanks - David

Eli · 02-24-2012, 04:16 PM

You're probably wearing out 1st gear.

To double clutch, you have to rev the engine to the RPM that it would be at in the gear you want for the speed you're going.

Clutch in
Neutral
Clutch out
Rev engine
Clutch in
Enjoy grind free shift.. if you did it right.

It takes a bit of practice.

**jeff652** · 02-24-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwrede

I bought my Gen1 about a year ago, and the only problem I have found has been the second gear downshift grind. As suggested, for $3k for the car, figured I could live with it. Now have another 10K miles on the car and just turned 200K. I have learn that the first gear downshift is ok, I can start to push it into first to spin down the gears without letting out on the clutch and then pull it back into second works just like an upshift, so letting me use second without a grind. My only concern, am I prematurely wearing something else out in using this first gear technique? I keep reading about this double clutching (I have heard of truckers using it). What "in detail" is that technique? Just pushing the clutch in twice doesn't do any good, so what am I missing? Thanks - David

Everything Eli said is correct. Also, pumping the clutch twice does do some good, as when you release the clutch the first time the main shaft re-engages with the engine and changes speed. Then re depressing the clutch allows you to shift into your desired gear. Usually this will result in a grind free shift. Don't force the car into first. It'll wear out the syncro just like the forced downshift into second does.