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Old 10-29-2016, 05:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default IMA On, No Auto-Stop, No Charge, No Assist

About a week ago, the IMA (and Check Engine) lamps on my 2001, Insight MT with 129,xxx miles came on while driving down the freeway. Subsequently, the IMA charge indicator displayed a nearly full charge until today, although auto-stop, charge, and assist all ceased to function immediately. Taking the car to O'Reilly's Auto Parts, they read a P1449 code.

My friend's 2005 Insight with 189,xxx miles recently had his Check Engine and IMA light come on, but his auto-stop still functions, and he has *some* charging and assist, though his battery is indeed weak, behaving differently than mine. I do not know what codes his car generated.

I have an electronics background, and the symptoms of my car (2001) seem more like an open fuse or bad connection to me, where my friend's 2005 is behaving exactly like weak batteries typically perform, but I am not familiar how the Insight internal diagnostics work exactly.

Pardon the pun, but can anyone give me some additional insight into the possible cause and/or how to troubleshoot the vehicle to determine what the cause is? If I need to replace the battery, I would definitely consider that, but my background is telling me it may be something different, and I don't want to spend $2k+ on a new battery if I don't have to!

Any thoughts or suggestions much appreciated!
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Old 10-29-2016, 06:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Both situations are "normal" for deteriorating IMA batteries. You have a P1449, which produces the symptoms you see. Your friend has a P1447, which is not as severe as a P1449, and leaves some IMA functions intact. Both will progress to complete IMA failure if not dealt with.

So let's concentrate on yours:

1.You can reset it by disconnecting the negative 12V battery terminal, or pulling Fuse #16 under the hood, which will work for a while.

2. You can grid charge it, which you should have been doing all along. This will fix it for a longer period.

3. Sooner or later you will need to replace the battery.

This will happen to all of us sooner or later. A good grid charging routine, started early, will keep the battery balanced and will put this off for a very long time.

Sam
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Old 10-29-2016, 07:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetrosMan View Post
About a week ago, the IMA (and Check Engine) lamps on my 2001, Insight MT with 129,xxx miles came on while driving down the freeway. Subsequently, the IMA charge indicator displayed a nearly full charge until today, although auto-stop, charge, and assist all ceased to function immediately. Taking the car to O'Reilly's Auto Parts, they read a P1449 code.

My friend's 2005 Insight with 189,xxx miles recently had his Check Engine and IMA light come on, but his auto-stop still functions, and he has *some* charging and assist, though his battery is indeed weak, behaving differently than mine. I do not know what codes his car generated.

I have an electronics background, and the symptoms of my car (2001) seem more like an open fuse or bad connection to me, where my friend's 2005 is behaving exactly like weak batteries typically perform, but I am not familiar how the Insight internal diagnostics work exactly.

Pardon the pun, but can anyone give me some additional insight into the possible cause and/or how to troubleshoot the vehicle to determine what the cause is? If I need to replace the battery, I would definitely consider that, but my background is telling me it may be something different, and I don't want to spend $2k+ on a new battery if I don't have to!

Any thoughts or suggestions much appreciated!
Unless your electronics background includes experience with NiMH based EV technology, it really doesn't apply much.

Your situation is completely different from your friend's. They are two different cars. Your battery is in worse shape than his. Yours is likely severely deteriorated and has potentially outright lost a cell or two. His is probably imbalanced beyond limits.

To dig in deeper, check the "Reading Blinks and Checking Taps" in my signature. Those procedures will give you more information.

Sam's recommendations are spot on.
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Old 10-29-2016, 08:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Don't forget to put the fuse back in though. (After about 10 sec.)
And reconnect the 12V battery. Same time frame.
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Old 10-30-2016, 11:25 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks to all for the suggestions, thoughts, or information!

After clearing the MIL, I disconnected the 12 V battery as Sam suggested, extinguishing the IMA indicator. Following that, I started the car and ran it at a fast idle (detailed elsewhere on this forum) until the BAT indicator displayed three bars. I've since driven the car, charging the IMA to near full, as indicated on BAT display. We'll see what happens next.

I anticipated that replacing the battery was in the cards at some point. I see online that a Honda replacement battery is some $300 cheaper and has the same 3 year warranty as the BumbleBee unit, but would be very interested in hearing from any forum member(s) that has replaced the IMA with the Honda replacement vs. the BumbleBee substitute, including any specific, parametric and/or operational differences between the two (beyond the obvious: specification differences, i.e., 6.5 Ah vs. 8.0 Ah; remanufactured vs. new cells), including any difficulties encountered during installation, or other pertinent information that could possibly impact my choice.

Thanks again!

-Dave
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Old 10-30-2016, 12:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetrosMan View Post
Thanks to all for the suggestions, thoughts, or information!

After clearing the MIL, I disconnected the 12 V battery as Sam suggested, extinguishing the IMA indicator. Following that, I started the car and ran it at a fast idle (detailed elsewhere on this forum) until the BAT indicator displayed three bars. I've since driven the car, charging the IMA to near full, as indicated on BAT display. We'll see what happens next.

I anticipated that replacing the battery was in the cards at some point. I see online that a Honda replacement battery is some $300 cheaper and has the same 3 year warranty as the BumbleBee unit, but would be very interested in hearing from any forum member(s) that has replaced the IMA with the Honda replacement vs. the BumbleBee substitute, including any specific, parametric and/or operational differences between the two (beyond the obvious: specification differences, i.e., 6.5 Ah vs. 8.0 Ah; remanufactured vs. new cells), including any difficulties encountered during installation, or other pertinent information that could possibly impact my choice.

Thanks again!

-Dave
Please provide a link to said Honda battery. You can find the batteries cheaper through online dealers, but when you actually try to purchase it, things blow up. Furthermore, you better get clarification on the warranty for a customer installed pack.

Here's my perspective on Honda batteries. Honda-made batteries (mfg by Primearth) have:
  • Generated class action lawsuits due to poor reliability
  • Had 30% failure rates in 09-10 Civics after only 3-4 years.
  • Had battery warranties on 09-11 HCH quietly extended to 10yr/150K for all states via customer letter in Mar/2015, presumably to avoid another class action due to said failure rates.

My first '06 HCH2 had its battery replaced before I bought it at 65K miles. The replacement lasted to 120K, but the last 15K involved 10+ recalibrations each leg of my daily 32.5 mile one-way commute.

My second '06 HCH2 had its battery replaced twice in the 220K miles before we bought it.

Things went to hell around the time that Panasonic divested itself of their joint venture with Toyota to make all Toyota/Honda NiMH EV batteries and coincided with the removal of their industrial "D" batteries from the market due to low demand (Lithium took over that market).

I have personally touched 15 HCH2 packs. Out of those 15, less than 3 packs worth of sticks were good. Honda (Toyota) quality my ass.

The above doesn't inspire confidence for me.
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Old 10-30-2016, 03:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thank you very much, S Keith, that's the type of information I was seeking.

I stand corrected. Noting that the price on the webpage (link below) includes a $500 core charge, it makes the Honda battery just over $200 cheaper.

1D010-PHM-A11RM - Genuine Honda Ima Battery Module

Thanks again,

-Dave
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Old 10-30-2016, 03:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetrosMan View Post
Thank you very much, S Keith, that's the type of information I was seeking.

I stand corrected. Noting that the price on the webpage (link below) includes a $500 core charge, it makes the Honda battery just over $200 cheaper.

1D010-PHM-A11RM - Genuine Honda Ima Battery Module

Thanks again,

-Dave
Again, have you tried to order it? I have never heard of someone successfully placing an order online. A few have tried, but they fail either due to refusal to ship or some other "policy" that is outside the norm. Some have said they can only ship to dealers.

Furthermore, there is still ambiguity concerning if Honda packs are made with new cells or are reconditions.

I encourage you to call them or do live chat and confirm:

1) Warranty and how you utilize the warranty.
2) Actual cost to get it to you.
3) New or reconditioned cells.
4) What Honda has done to improve the horrible quality of their battery packs since those made for the 06-11 model years?

Even better, use Majestic as they are a preferred online part source:

Honda Automotive Parts

$1320.45 + $500 core charge + much lower shipping. For me, it's $1,866.75 OTD INCLUDING core charge.

EDIT: to be clear, I wouldn't consider purchasing even for that price unless #3 is "New" and #4 was adequately addressed.
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Last edited by S Keith; 10-30-2016 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 10-30-2016, 06:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If it were up to me I'd have you pursue one of the Bumblebee 'Beeline' rebuilt packs: https://bumblebeebatteries.com/hybri...honda-insight/

Until someone explains/convinces me otherwise, I can't see how calling the new aftermarket packs "8.0 amp-hours" isn't anything but false advertising... The aftermarket cells don't have more active material in them; they probably have less. They won't put out 8 amp hours from full charge to full discharge... In the car, they may be able to achieve higher performance for longer than OEM, yet that's not because they're bigger cells... Claims of performance advantage when it comes to aftermarket packs/cells is a murky affair, so murky that I doubt there is any. There's probably trade-offs, like OEM=more energy, longer lasting (i.e. life), aftermarket= more power (but still no more than the car will allow), better short-term performance, but shorter life and questions that remain about how nicely the cells play with the OEM computers...

There's lots of people who have used the aftermarket '8Ah' packs and have been happy with them. But I have yet to see anyone produce any observations that prove the aftermarket packs work in the car better than a new OEM pack, particularly when it comes to the medium to long-term...
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Old 10-30-2016, 09:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eq1 View Post
If it were up to me I'd have you pursue one of the Bumblebee 'Beeline' rebuilt packs: https://bumblebeebatteries.com/hybri...honda-insight/

Until someone explains/convinces me otherwise, I can't see how calling the new aftermarket packs "8.0 amp-hours" isn't anything but false advertising... The aftermarket cells don't have more active material in them; they probably have less. They won't put out 8 amp hours from full charge to full discharge... In the car, they may be able to achieve higher performance for longer than OEM, yet that's not because they're bigger cells... Claims of performance advantage when it comes to aftermarket packs/cells is a murky affair, so murky that I doubt there is any. There's probably trade-offs, like OEM=more energy, longer lasting (i.e. life), aftermarket= more power (but still no more than the car will allow), better short-term performance, but shorter life and questions that remain about how nicely the cells play with the OEM computers...

There's lots of people who have used the aftermarket '8Ah' packs and have been happy with them. But I have yet to see anyone produce any observations that prove the aftermarket packs work in the car better than a new OEM pack, particularly when it comes to the medium to long-term...
Not sure why you draw that conclusion from the results presented here a few years back:

http://99mpg.com/blog/batterypacksexpose/
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