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Old 04-20-2019, 01:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Regenerative braking to the 12V battery?

Is it possible to use or modify the Insight's stock regenerative braking to charge the 12V battery without the IMA being installed?

If so, how? If not, why?

(Please don't turn this into a why-did-you-remove-the-IMA discussion).
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Old 04-20-2019, 01:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes it is,. There are MANY threads to that effect here at ICN.
Use the search function, top left of this page for best results.

HTH
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Old 04-20-2019, 01:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I think you may have confused my question. I wasn't asking about charging the 12V battery with the IMA disabled, but rather if some form of regenerative braking can be used to keep the 12V battery charged up, in addition to the DC-DC. Normally the regenerative braking charges the IMA battery, but with that being disabled/removed, regenerative braking goes away. My question was if it was possible to modify the Insight's regenerative braking to directly charge the 12V battery rather than the IMA. I did not find any threads addressing this in my search.
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Old 04-20-2019, 01:40 PM   #4 (permalink)
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No, you can't push enough power fast enough to do any kind of meaningful regen into an Insight's 12V lead battery.
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Old 04-20-2019, 01:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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No, you can't push enough power fast enough to do any kind of meaningful regen into an Insight's 12V lead battery.
Why not? If regenerative braking is sufficient for the high voltage IMA battery, why wouldn't it work for the much smaller 12V battery?
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Old 04-20-2019, 02:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
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No, you can't push enough power fast enough to do any kind of meaningful regen into an Insight's 12V lead battery.
Why not? If regenerative braking is sufficient for the high voltage IMA battery, why wouldn't it work for the much smaller 12V battery?
Maximum charge rate for a high quality lead acid is about 1C... Roughly 50 amps or 600 watts. Regen with the high voltage battery is more like 10,000 watts. If you went to all the trouble to engineer and program a system to accomplish what you are describing the net effect would be impossible to feel. A fool's errand.
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Old 04-20-2019, 02:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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It has to do with the charge rate for lead acid battery chemistry. I don't know the exact numbers offhand but, lets say your 12V battery would accept a 50 amp charge rate. That's only 480 watts. While that is something, it's chump change compared to regular regen rates.

But lets talk about other problems.

You would need to solve the technical hurdles of actually being able to selectively discharge and charge your 12V battery. Assuming you did all that, you would then find your 12V battery doesn't appreciate all the abuse and it'll probably start failing in short order. There are more issues related charging leaded batteries in general, but this should be enough cold water for now.
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Old 04-20-2019, 02:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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You both make points. It seems like what I am trying to accomplish can be easily accomplished through the IMA system "disabled" in a way. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are 5 things that the IMA does:
#1: Provides electric assist when demanded
#2: Regeneratively charges the battery upon braking
#3: Provides support to the DC-DC by keeping the 12V at a higher voltage when the DC-DC is in low-power mode.
#4: Takes a small trickle charge off the engine that doesn't show up on the charge display to make up for #3 (noticeable when the IMA bars slowly increase on highway drives with no IMA use. This is what I believe causes the IMA to reduce highway economy slightly).
#5: Does forced charge when the battery is low.

If this is the case, then using an IMA boost device or IMAC&C could disable all of the above but #3. This seems like it would result in the IMA slowly discharging as a slight drain is put upon it to aid the DC-DC in keeping the 12V at ~14V. Normally whenever more juice is demanded from the IMA to get the 12V charged back up, an increased load is put on the engine, which reduces fuel economy (something I experienced when doing extended EOC at night with the IMA enabled). However, with an IMA boost device or IMAC&C, all regen and assist could be disabled, and then regen could be applied to charge the IMA when braking to make up for the slight drain on it to keep the 12V charged.

Or am I misunderstanding this whole thing completely? This seems to follow what I experienced with the IMA enabled.

Tagging @retepsnikrep in case I am incorrectly describing how the IMA boost device or IMAC&C function.
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| When purchased, Nov '18: 254K mi, LMPG 62.5
| Now: 263K mi, 81.7 MPG avg (LMPG 62.9, not reset), best 126.6 MPG
| Full IMA delete, 15V Meanwell pseudo-alternator, increased tire pressure, grille block, WAI, underbody panels, Scott's pan, other aeromods
| 6th gen Civic console, 8th gen Civic shift knob, Polk DB652 speakers, all LED lighting except interior and signals
| Details:
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Old 04-20-2019, 04:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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You are missing the point about charge rate. Lead acid doesn't like to be charged above a rate of about 1C, and that's only for the bulk stage. Topping the battery up to 100% takes much longer.

1C means a rate that is one times it's total capacity per hour. In real world terms, this means that if you had a lead battery at 40% state of charge, it will take 1/2 hour to charge it 50% to 90% SOC. Or in your case, you would need to brake for 30 minutes straight to charge it to 90%.

You can't charge a small lead acid battery fast enough to regen brake into it. This whole idea is, as ackattacker put it, a fool's errend.

Don't believe us? Read up on Mazda's i-ELOOP system. Instead abusing the lead acid battery, they are using super capacitors.
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Last edited by Bull Dog; 04-20-2019 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 04:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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As has been stated by others the lead acid battery can't accept the high regen rate provided by the ima system.

The IMA can provide 50A regen into 180V or so, so 9000w (9kw)

The 12v battery might if you are lucky, be able to accept 12v x 50A for short periods = 600w.

So you see they are not compatible by factor of at least 15 and that's discounting the technical hurdles required to make it possible.

In fact the 12v system can't take more than 6.66% of the available IMA power.

Of course you could limit power to 600w but then you would be wasting regen opportunities and power in your brakes.
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