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Old 12-02-2016, 05:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 2010 I2 drive issues - update

Hi All,

Not been on here very much recently, been very busy with work, and spending a bit of time on the IMIEV forums, as I recently bought one to replace my Celica. I can only report good things with the IMIEV - its a great little car, and super smooth, perfect for my suburban London usage.

The Insight on the other hand has been a nightmare. October 2014 I noticed drive (transmission???) jerking after an ECU update (coincidence or contributory I have no idea).

No fault codes were ever seen, so the dealership brushed it off. I moaned at them and Honda UK for about 2 years as the car got worse. In March 2016 they replaced the EGR valve under extended warranty when I had it in for an airbag recall - that made no difference, and the car was becoming more sluggish, more temperamental, hunting, banging and jerking around allover the place up to about 20mph. Ive had the engine cut out 3 times now after large surges - but essentially:

-its become worse
-its the entire drive; accel, braking, changing speed, reversing, pull-away etc - all weak and lumpy/ jerking.
-the ownership experience has been awful, and my wife doesn't even feel particularly safe driving it any longer with the baby in the car (and I concur, the car is driving like junk).
-its been serviced by the book by Honda too.
-48K miles
-ECO mode is worse all round

Just as it was about service time this year, I wrote another strongly worded letter to Honda UK and the dealership expressing my frustrations that they believe the car to be fine when it reads ok on the ECU scan - but it isnt. Without the correct diagnosis I have been unable to fix it, drive it properly, unable to sell it - just stuck in limbo really, at a time when I dont have the free time to mess about with the thing. I just needed it working like a Honda should. My 17 year old Accord is still 100% fine!

Honda wrote back to me informing me they have instructed the dealership to undertake a 'full test as per the opened case for the car'. I had the car in today, and they said that the ECU was still clear, but during a 10 mile test with different diagnostics, it shows a coil pack fault, and is misfiring.

I'm trying to understand how a coil pack could produce all these symptoms, when I believed it to be CVT related based on the type of adverse drive I have - but I am willing to listen to a point if that's what they think, as I don't have the answer either.

If it turns out to be a coil pack - shouldn't that be picked up by the ECU??? Thought it would be. If it is this, its taken them 5 visits and 27 months to get there,over which time ive had a crappy car, and the extended warranty expire - though I am going to fight Honda on principal if they ask me to foot any of this bill, as the dealership have been extremely poor in getting there (though the money side is a different matter).

Plus, I still wont know if the coil pack will fix the fault, its only the most recent diagnosis - which i'll have to go with, and see if it helps.

Ben
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2010 Pre-facelift Gen 2 ES-T 46K, Nav, leather. - faulty CVT gearbox under warranty - Honda have tried to pass the buck, ongoing...
2012 Mitsubishi I-Miev 13K
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2009 Hornet CBF600F-A
2008 SH300 ABS

Last edited by phb10186; 12-02-2016 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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best of luck with the coil pack replacement, ben ... please update after the fix
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:16 AM   #3 (permalink)
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How many times have had the transmission fluid changed?
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Old 12-03-2016, 03:04 AM   #4 (permalink)
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As per the book... every 2 years, December 2014 when I first got the car and at this service. It was done in 2012 as well... and it's done about 13000 miles over the last 2 years.
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Old 12-03-2016, 04:22 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Could well be coil pack. You could get weird CVT behaviour as the car tries to compensate.

Just another question: where have you been fueling it? I've noticed my car gets the jerks if fueled up at Morrison's and takes a tank or two to recover afterwards. I tend to stick to one of the branded garages, like BP now (still just RON 95 though).
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Old 12-03-2016, 08:23 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
Could well be coil pack. You could get weird CVT behaviour as the car tries to compensate.

Just another question: where have you been fueling it? I've noticed my car gets the jerks if fueled up at Morrison's and takes a tank or two to recover afterwards. I tend to stick to one of the branded garages, like BP now (still just RON 95 though).
Best if luck with it,surprised,my 2010,doesent miss a beat,was lumpy,jerky,update fixed that,id change plugs Sewell as coil etc
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
Could well be coil pack. You could get weird CVT behaviour as the car tries to compensate.

Just another question: where have you been fueling it? I've noticed my car gets the jerks if fueled up at Morrison's and takes a tank or two to recover afterwards. I tend to stick to one of the branded garages, like BP now (still just RON 95 though).
I often do fill up at Morrisons, as there is one close. I could move over to Shell actually, its hardly any difference in price. Though I do use Redex additive about 4 times a year, which is about once every 3-4 tanks.

Ive always been a bit skeptical of the brand vs supermarket fuel debate - as I cant see how there would too much difference in the fuel itself (has to meet Euro/ British Standards, comes from the same refineries etc). The only difference I can see is that there may be different additives in brand vs supermarkets, OR that the supermarket pump/ tanks are not as well kept (though I would have thought they need to do regular assays to ensure there isn't any water/ diesel/ other contamination.

There is the summer and winter blend changes which should mean that the car may respond slightly differently - though if this is an intermittent sparking issue, I can see a logical correlation to all this.

Ive got several circulating thoughts in my mind about all this (and bearing in mind the car is still at Honda awaiting a plan):

- Can any engine or CVT damage have resulted over the last 2 years from this?
- This doesnt seem to be a common issue reported on the site
- Why has it taken the dealer over 2 years to undertake appropriate diagnostics after repeated complaints.

Whats the UK spark plug change interval again - was it 6 years, or 60,000 miles, or 8 - I cant remember.

Clearly, irrespective of whether this car is fixed or not during this chapter, I have serious considerations as to keep or sell. My anecdotal experience has been poor, so there is a cloud hanging over the model (well this car), I dont like CVTs anyway, and the front passenger legroom has always been a squeeze with a kids seat in the back, with the car only just about large enough for us (though we could manage really).

Since we sold my wife's excellent RAV4 3 door to get the Insight, which has overall been a dissapointment - I have been considering another RAV (though the pre CVT ones), or a Lexus RX 400/ 450H, as fuel economy has become less important as I have a full EV for most weekend runs, and the mileage done by the Insight has fallen due to a change in jobs (5K miles a year now only). I'm not a huge SUV fan, but it would be fairly practical to have one 4x4 vehicle, with the RAV/ RX having non-permanent 4-wheel drive, Vs the older ones that had full time 4 x 4. Would consider a CR-V or Toyota Verso, though not too much proce difference between used RAV and CRV, and the Verso is OK, but there is a rather uninspiring choice of automatic variants (she wants auto), and we don't really need the extra 2 seats.

I wonder if ECU updates have contained revisions to coil pack firing, or if this is a pure electrical fault. Does the I2 have individual packs per spark plug, per 2 plugs per cylinder, or a combined system for all 8 plugs?

I looked on ebay, and it seems each plug is is an individual coil pack, like most Japanese cars tend to be.

This is the 9th Honda I've owned (more than any other brand), and this will be the first electrical issue on a Honda I will have ever had. The only other fault I have had was ages ago on a 1987 Accord EXI 2.0 ALB auto, where the clutch on 3rd gear went after 100K miles - and that was a very long time ago!

Last edited by phb10186; 12-03-2016 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 12-04-2016, 07:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Morrison's have, on occasion, used a higher proportion of ethanol in their standard RON 95 than any other major UK retailer (not that it's a bad thing) but generally in the UK, even our worst fuel has been of a relatively high standard. That's one reason why I believe the piston rings problem on 2012+ Insights hasn't emerged in the European market like it did in the states. I just mention it because of noticing a mild issue when using Morrison's fuel in particular.

Also I think spark plugs are 100,000 miles. I'm at 73k and it's not come up yet on SVRS. I have the standard interval service sheet somewhere and that rings a bell.

Aside from that (the Sun isn't my favourite source but there you go) but there have been several reports of Morrison's main supplier Greenenergy having contaminated fuel batches in the south of England. This is a recent one: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.t...ndroid-samsung

And something a bit more substantial than Sun readers whining: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/mo...ghts-thousands but I can't see a date. It may even be the big problem they had back in 2007 but that couldn't have affected your car.

Last edited by Uriel; 12-04-2016 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 12-04-2016, 05:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
Morrison's have, on occasion, used a higher proportion of ethanol in their standard RON 95 than any other major UK retailer (not that it's a bad thing) but generally in the UK, even our worst fuel has been of a relatively high standard. That's one reason why I believe the piston rings problem on 2012+ Insights hasn't emerged in the European market like it did in the states. I just mention it because of noticing a mild issue when using Morrison's fuel in particular.

Also I think spark plugs are 100,000 miles. I'm at 73k and it's not come up yet on SVRS. I have the standard interval service sheet somewhere and that rings a bell.

Aside from that (the Sun isn't my favourite source but there you go) but there have been several reports of Morrison's main supplier Greenenergy having contaminated fuel batches in the south of England. This is a recent one: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.t...ndroid-samsung

And something a bit more substantial than Sun readers whining: Dirty fuel blights thousands | Autocar but I can't see a date. It may even be the big problem they had back in 2007 but that couldn't have affected your car.
Robert and Patricia Caines from Little Clacton in Essex look like bonafide Sun readers to me - though I take your point.

... this has been going on for ages now, and ive filled up with Shell lots of times, V-power and regular, and it makes little difference.
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2010 Pre-facelift Gen 2 ES-T 46K, Nav, leather. - faulty CVT gearbox under warranty - Honda have tried to pass the buck, ongoing...
2012 Mitsubishi I-Miev 13K
2002 Celica T-Sport - sold
2009 Hornet CBF600F-A
2008 SH300 ABS
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phb10186 View Post
This is the 9th Honda I've owned (more than any other brand), and this will be the first electrical issue on a Honda I will have ever had. The only other fault I have had was ages ago on a 1987 Accord EXI 2.0 ALB auto, where the clutch on 3rd gear went after 100K miles - and that was a very long time ago!
Well, if it makes you feel better, my Fit started running rougher and rougher at around 105-110k. Never a code at all, but it got to the point of bucking and jerking and power loss.

New set of coil packs and it ran like a sewing machine again. 182k on it now, and the only other problem I've had with it is the EGR failing to close sporadically and causing it to die at idle.
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