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Old 08-11-2014, 06:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
Well, from my point of view, it is only through the identification of shortcomings that improvements can be made.

But perhaps that sentiment should be only in the modifications section.
But when is good enough, good enough?
We are conditioned in our society to never rest, to never be satisfied, to always be improving.. but that ALWAYS leads to suffering..for desire is the other face of the same coin of resistance (if we desire something we resist everything else). Resistance (and therefore desire) always leads to suffering.

In my example: reading all those friggen motorcycle mags for all those years lead me to never be happy with the product I owned. I was perfect prey for the consumer driven economy based on debt slavery.. more than a double hit of suffering in my case (depreciation is another good one)... once you see it.. the game changes.

In my opinion, cars and motorcycles as a whole are pretty amazing machines now: reliable, handle pretty darn good, etc etc.
You could for example buy pretty well any major mfg sport bike (motorcycle) from model year 2000 on, and almost 98% of the public could never out ride it.
So what the heck do we need all these new bikes for other than replacing old warn out stuff, but that isn't what drives the market... see my notes above.

I am MUCH happier now understanding that I don't need the latest and greatest widget.. frankly unplugging from TV four years ago was amazing with regards to reducing suffering, needless wasteful spending.. etc. Soon you realize all it is for is to sell products that we don't need and that we can't afford, based on programming you to be conditioned that you need the latest and greatest widget. Now we run out and purchase that on credit and become debt slaves long after that product is worn out, gone or something.. its just crazy...and that debt slavery does so much damage and creates so much suffering.

I loved my Corvette Z06, but I loved being out of debt more.. in hindsight.. I wouldn't change a thing.. the Vette is gone and the Insight is in.. and she's magic.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Welcome to the Human race, Andrew. If it wasn't for that urge to never rest, to never be satisfied, to always be improving, you would have neither the Z06 nor the Insight. Both were (and the Insight remains) the pinnacle of their respective technologies and the result of humans thinking that "good enough" wasn't good enough.

I see you have a grid charger. Guess the Insight's own charging and maintenance systems weren't "good enough"? Couldn't be satisfied? Had to improve it?
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
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<Insert Fight Club quotes>
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fuelish View Post
Welcome to the Human race, Andrew. If it wasn't for that urge to never rest, to never be satisfied, to always be improving, you would have neither the Z06 nor the Insight. Both were (and the Insight remains) the pinnacle of their respective technologies and the result of humans thinking that "good enough" wasn't good enough.

I see you have a grid charger. Guess the Insight's own charging and maintenance systems weren't "good enough"? Couldn't be satisfied? Had to improve it?
That's funny - you called me out on it! I am human, and there is paradox in me just like the rest of life.

When we realize (at the critical mass level) the problems of technology can't be solved with more technology (there is plenty of evidence now of this), we have reached the peak of the technology age. The reason why we can't solve the technology problems with more technology is because we view the problems as separate and attempt to apply separate solutions (or no solutions at all).
The future will be a shift to the connected age, where we realize all is connected and to solve our problems will take a connected effort all the way down to the grass roots level. We are beginning to transition out of the technology age now, and beginning to go thru "no mans land" where no one understands what to do. We will then move into the connected age.

My point of this is: I believe we need to find the balance between technology and harmony with our ecosystem.
Unfortunately this takes a shift in our economic model which does not believe in balance only profit, and the untruth of infinite economic growth.

But all this is non sequitur and I apologize.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by andrewdonald1 View Post
My point of this is: I believe we need to find the balance between technology and harmony with our ecosystem. Unfortunately this takes a shift in our economic model which does not believe in balance only profit, and the untruth of infinite economic growth.
On that we agree. You may find this article and blog interesting: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...-scale-energy/
Summary: If we continue on the historic average of 2.3% annual economic (energy) growth, we will boil the oceans in less than 450 years.
Quote:
But all this is non sequitur and I apologize.
No need. Forum posts always stray, and that's where some of the really interesting stuff shows up.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:43 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by andrewdonald1 View Post
When we realize (at the critical mass level) the problems of technology can't be solved with more technology (there is plenty of evidence now of this), we have reached the peak of the technology age. The reason why we can't solve the technology problems with more technology is because we view the problems as separate and attempt to apply separate solutions (or no solutions at all).
"more technology" as in a 'larger amount of' or 'better' technology? I think improved technology can certainly solve problems; sometimes without creating new ones. I guess the trick is to solve more problems than you create and actually make things more efficient. The only other way I see to reduce negative environmental effects of humans being here is to reduce the population.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I have moved this well defined thread because it was clearly off topic where it resided. On the other hand, I find this discussion very interesting and very worthwhile. I will make contributions myself and I hope to see the thread develop further
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The only other way I see to reduce negative environmental effects of humans being here is to reduce the population.
That would be a darn good start

Unfortunately, populations tend to increase in backward countries, where it causes the most suffering; and to decrease in developed nations which have the best claim on technology and developmental outcomes. Tis a conundrum.

"Voluntary" population growth seems to be a failure, yet there are few or any approaches on which the various factions are likely to reach agreement.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:50 AM   #9 (permalink)
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"Voluntary" population growth seems to be a failure, yet there are few or any approaches on which the various factions are likely to reach agreement.
I think it's obvious to most realists that humans cannot continue increasing their numbers on a planet with finite resources. Colonizing the Moon or Mars in any numbers that would relieve the pressure on Earth isn't likely to occur before life on Earth becomes really awful due to overpopulation (famines, resource wars, insufficient clean fresh water supplies, epidemics, etc.).

But what I haven't heard discussed much is the effect on our Ponzi scheme economic system that depends on continuing population growth. With no population growth or preferably a moderate population decline, what would an economy look like? Would most humans have to accept a decline in their standards of living? This seems like a problem that no government is willing to face. Even here in progressive Sweden, the government argues that Sweden must support immigration to maintain Sweden's economy which would falter if the population stabilized or declined. But immigration is just shifting the overpopulation problem around geographically and isn't solving the basic problem.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Colonizing the Moon or Mars in any numbers that would relieve the pressure on Earth isn't likely to occur before life on Earth becomes really awful due to overpopulation [...]
Ain't going to happen at all. Aside from the fact that space is extremely hostile to life, the laws of physics just make it completely untenable energy-wise.
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...why-not-space/

This comic does a nice job of illustrating the barriers to interplanetary travel:
https://xkcd.com/681/

Quote:
Would most humans have to accept a decline in their standards of living?
Future humans may have a lower standard of living, but if we actively address overpopulation and resource exhaustion, maybe not. I'm not optimistic. For certain there will be fewer people, probably by half or more. Whether it happens through planning or war, famine, and disease, it's going to happen.
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