Transmission or IMA jolting/ surging after IMA and CVT update - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Transmission or IMA jolting/ surging after IMA and CVT update

Hi,

I had the recent updates applied to the IMA and CVT, and at first I though everything was great... However, I did 360 miles today, and there appear to be a few problems. The car is a 2010 with 34K on the clock, and full Honda service history to schedule...

1. The first part of my drive was a 60 mile journey, where I had the car on cruise at 73mph... after about 40 miles, there was forced regen going uphill... I think it happened about three times.

2. The main issue, is that the car has now developed three IMA or CVT issues:

a. From standstill it is not pulling away smoothly and linearly, rather a three phase pattern until about 10mph is reached, after which it is fine. I feels like gas is applied, then stopped, started, stopped and then finally started again (at constant light throttle)... once rolling it is ok.

b. There is a noticeable jerk from either the CVT or the IMA (I would guess it's the CVT actually) when driving at say 15mph, lifting off throttle slightly, and then re-applying... it feels like one or two fairly major jerks/surges.

c. When slowing from about 30-40mph, then breaking and reapplying the gas, there is a very large IMA or CVT jerk, and a couple of times, this has produced a knock from the front end.... not nice at all.

I wouls hazard a guess that these three are all symptoms of the same fault... definately seems to have happened since the software update...

I cant help but think there may be a throttle position sensor fault, but I don;t know enough about the IMA and CVT to accurately pinpoint if it is IMA or CVT... my thoughts would be on CVT, but that is purely speculative.

The car is fine when cruising at normal motorway speeds.

It is due a service in December, so I am going to raise it then... but my own feeling is that this is not doing the car any good at all, it's certainly not nice to drive, and these faults seem to be happening inconsistently.

One last thing... I am using 99 octane unleaded, and there are no warning lights coming up on the dashboard.


Any ideas?
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:17 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I can't offer any technical insight (no pun intended!) but having just had the updates last week I can confirm that I have not experienced any of the issues you have (500+ miles of driving).

All the hills on which my car used to force charge (some real nasty ones too), it no longer does so. It's also very smooth, much smoother than before. You should be having exactly the same experience.

The issues you are having sound like slightly more extreme versions of those my car had pre updates. Especially the jerking after coming back on the throttle which always used to jolt me right out of a state of relaxation.

Very strange
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:14 AM   #3 (permalink)
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My car will occasionally still go into regen on hills but only larger sustained ones. Before the updates it would regen immediately on only a slight gradient change in some circumstances.

When was the last time you had the CVT fluid changed?

You might want to think about a CVT relearn procedure. From above 35 mph, let the car slow to a crawl without touching the pedals in D.

I tried a few tanks of 98 RON fuel. It didn't improve anything. My best few tanks have been on BP RON 95 (US and UK have a different way of presenting octane. UK 95 is US 91 or 93 I think).
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
My car will occasionally still go into regen on hills but only larger sustained ones. Before the updates it would regen immediately on only a slight gradient change in some circumstances.

When was the last time you had the CVT fluid changed?

You might want to think about a CVT relearn procedure. From above 35 mph, let the car slow to a crawl without touching the pedals in D.

I tried a few tanks of 98 RON fuel. It didn't improve anything. My best few tanks have been on BP RON 95 (US and UK have a different way of presenting octane. UK 95 is US 91 or 93 I think).
The Honda dealerdhip (Johnsons francise Oxford) who serviced the car from new before I bought it said that it has been serviced as per the book from new, but couldnt elaborate further than that (I have the stamps to prove it)... so I can only assume the CVT fluid has been changed... but I have no way of affirming that.

I had the ECU update done by Johnsons in Milton Keynes, as he did me a deal on a 2nd key that I never got with the car. Unfortunately, they are an hour away, and my nearest franchise is Crown in Hendon... but I though that since the same franchise has looked after the car from new, it would be sensible to take it back there for them to rectify... but it's a pain.

I've tried the CVT relearn procedure... it made no difference, but I am going to try it again actually.

It is all very strange indeed.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:58 AM   #5 (permalink)
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You should get the fluid changed asap. I don't know what the schedule is in the UK, but I do know that way more often is best. This has been true of all Honda automatics and is especially true of the CVT. It is possible that with 34k on the clock it has never been done.
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Old 11-04-2014, 03:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egads View Post
You should get the fluid changed asap. I don't know what the schedule is in the UK, but I do know that way more often is best. This has been true of all Honda automatics and is especially true of the CVT. It is possible that with 34k on the clock it has never been done.
I second that motion. Sounds like CVT fluid problem. Get it changed right away. None of those symptoms you report are good.
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I second that motion. Sounds like CVT fluid problem. Get it changed right away. None of those symptoms you report are good.

I will get it changed... I am just very annoyed that the previous servicing dealership told me that it was done according to the book, but could not confirm that it had been replaced or not... how is that good service, either for the products they sell, or the customer?

When you day the symptoms are not good, I assume you mention from a CVT longevity point of view (in which case I acknowledge that)...

I am just completely at a loss as to why these things only showed up AFTER the software updates... it was all fine before, unless this is a total coincidence.

I would change the CVT fluid myself, but if there is any warranty claim, Honda would send the fluid off for analysis and unless Honda oil and filters are used in the gearbox, they would void any claim.. so the saving is probably not huge there.

In any case... ill see how it goes.
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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If it genuinely has been done by the book, it should have been done every 2 years or 25,000 miles, whichever is sooner. Assuming it's on variable servicing, the service book has both a tick box for each service for transmission fluid changes (item 3 IIRC) and a separate section to it (aside from general servicing). If the dealer hasn't filled either of those in, you do wonder if it's been serviced correctly.

Please note these are UK / Europe specific intervals. Honda's recommendations for other areas vary.
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Indeed your schedule is different than that in the US. However, it is my contention that "by the book" is not nearly often enough. Not even often enough for the Honda guy who designed the CVT.

All that said, I do wonder about the coincidence of these symptoms starting right after the software update. Could the update have been corrupted somehow? Is there is any way for a dealer to even check that? This is one of those cases where a really good dealer with a service manager who will go to bat for you with Honda is needed.

By the way, only real Honda CVT fluid should be used despite what you may read here.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egads View Post
Indeed your schedule is different than that in the US. However, it is my contention that "by the book" is not nearly often enough. Not even often enough for the Honda guy who designed the CVT.

All that said, I do wonder about the coincidence of these symptoms starting right after the software update. Could the update have been corrupted somehow? Is there is any way for a dealer to even check that? This is one of those cases where a really good dealer with a service manager who will go to bat for you with Honda is needed.

By the way, only real Honda CVT fluid should be used despite what you may read here.
I have booked the car in for a service, CVT oil replacement, ECU-reupdate and an MOT (inspection)... if that fails to make the car smooth as silk, then I am going to complain to Honda UK as a warranty issue.

CVT fluid is due for replacement at 2 years old... however the car has only covered 9k in that time (again assuming that it has been replaced correctly)...

I have found out from the dealer that on the year 2 service, a gearbox sump plug washer was ordered, hence they said, was enough proof to determine that it had been changed...

Hopefully a change of all the fluids will work wonders.
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