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Old 01-26-2018, 03:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default The $500 (or less) Lithium Insight HV Pack

There has been a lot of talk about wanting to convert from OEM NiMH cells to Lithium but no one seems really ready to do the work necessary. Aside from Peter's, Mike D's and Ian's A123 packs, no one seems to have followed through because of the costs and complexities involved. Jim's and Peter's recent work is encouraging because it shows that it may be possible for the determined Insghter to be able to afford and build a satisfactory Lithium Insight pack.

OEM quality Lithium cells availability at cheap prices and easier reverse engineerable BMS electronics will make these economical Lithium packs possible. However, it will take a few determined folks to show the way. Right now, it looks like most are sitting on their hands waiting for someone else to do the work. Recently I referenced the Hyundai Sonata high quality OEM HV packs with readily hackable BMS..... only crickets. Apparently the Lithium talk is just that, a lot of talk.
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Old 01-26-2018, 08:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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what's the point of this thread?
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Old 01-26-2018, 08:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
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what's the point of this thread?
Agreed, there's a whole thread for this.

Unless you have a project log you'd like to start, OP?
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default The point

If you really want to covert to Lithium, you can do it on a budget. Buy a Hyundai Sonata 2011 battery pack which consists of nine pieces high quality OEM LG brand 5.3Ah 30 volt sub packs (2-1/4" x 5-1/4" x 12" each), BMS made up of off the shelf components, plus high volume blower, mounting hardware, etc.. This entire Hyundai Sonata 2011 pack available locally for $200. He has two more. Hundreds available across the country.

Five or six of the sub packs will easily fit and mount inside a gutted Insight case using existing OEM base/mount and wiring harness. Simple and cheap. Peter's OBDIIC&C adapter would allow safe use without a BMS but hacking the Sonata BMS generic CPU looks doable.

In case you missed it, the link to the Sonata pack teardown isI <3 Clare: Hyundai Sonata Hybrid battery pack teardown Also checkout the "Sonata Pack Module Testing" (see left hand column listings).
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I had missed the Sonata pack teardown.
It's an interesting pack and if available in quantity may be viable but...

Some issues I see.

We have to redo all the reverse engineering on that BMS.
Saying it's hackable and actually doing it are two different things.
It looks more complicated than the Civic one..

We need a working car as well as battery packs to do the research.
We need full Honda like workshop manuals and dealer engineering info if available?

They don't sell that car in UK.

If Jim gets a working lithium civic I might be able to come over and do some work on it stateside if I can get a crowdfunded cheap flight. Might be able to combine trip with the annual US Insight gathering..

If you want to get me one of those BMS boards Hugh and ship it to me I'll look at it.
I will need the workshop manuals as well though. pdf will do. (I'll leave that with you)

I suggest you buy a $200 pack and do some basic research like Jim is doing on pack wiring etc etc and ship me the BMS.
Jim and I are spending time and money doing the work, you have to pony up and get onboard as well.

Finally.
Normally I don't like Lipoly cells due to there instability and intolerance of abuse but these must? be HQ if a global manufacturer is using them.
Any reports stateside of these cars burning down?
Even so managing them safely will need good software talking to the BMS boards..
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:05 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Are you going to get a pack Hugh so we can do some research parallel to the HCH3 thread?

All our eggs in one basket is obviously not a good idea..
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default My regrets

Peter: As much as I would like to participate in your (and Jim's) project to develop a successful working Lithium pack for the Insight, I am going to have to remain a messenger and spectator only. My physical infirmities at present limit how much work I am able to do on the Insight projects. I just cannot take on any physical Lithium pack work at this time. There have been many expressions of interest in Lithium packs on the forum; let's hope some of these folks (and trolls) put their money and efforts where their mouth is. It is time for these others to pitch in.

In the "Where is the Lithium market?" thread I mentioned that the Ford C-Max pack cells and those used in the Honda Civic Lithium pack appear to have the same chemistry, electrical specs and dimensions and may be identical. If so, the information you all gain about the Honda Civic pack may have use in converting Ford C-max packs as well. More possibilities.
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Ok How about just buying a Sonata pack for someone who can do the work.
Some others on here may be able to assist with the teardown of a pack.
Volunteers to help Hugh? I only need the bms board initially...
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh-Falls View Post

In the "Where is the Lithium market?" thread I mentioned that the Ford C-Max pack cells and those used in the Honda Civic Lithium pack appear to have the same chemistry, electrical specs and dimensions and may be identical. If so, the information you all gain about the Honda Civic pack may have use in converting Ford C-max packs as well. More possibilities.
Yes, I think your recommendation of the C-Max may well work with the Civic BCM - assuming we can get that to work.

A real neat option would be the C-Max Energi which must be from one of the Ford plug-in hybrids or something. That cell is show on GreenTech at 20AHr.

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Old 01-29-2018, 09:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I really want lithium power for my insight one day. I'd be down to pitch in a little for crowd funding
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