Honda Insight Forum banner

281 - 300 of 301 Posts

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
n4s, you're right, no slots on the resonator. Read an article on how that unit provides dampening / cushioning of air flow pulsations as the 3 cylinder ice draws in air. One of the IC guys posted a pic of bumper and fender disassembled.

As for temps and mpg:

I've had 90 - 100 deg f rise above ambient during the 'mountain climb' to work. When the ice has a lot of load on it & the cat heats up pretty good. ect rises to 213 - 217 (I use either cabin heat or the variable rad block to bring it back to 200 - 205). Able to hold decent mpg on the climb which makes the 'to work' mpg more consistant with warmer weather. After cresting the top, temps cool off some. Oct 2012 I averaged 60 mpg 'to work' (up hill), Oct 2013 I averaged 64. Not much, but I'll take it.

More experimenting.

..Bob
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
Diminishing returns?

Updating warm air / grill block mods vs cold weather:

A while back I made several 14 mile runs on a nearby interstate. 7 miles one way, and 7 miles back. I drove a warm-up period before the runs to get the car up to operating temps. I tried different arrangements of my adjustable grill block and warm air inlet. I made 3 runs in each direction to get somewhat of an average.

A couple months ago, I made the runs with temps around 40 F (4C), and with grill block and warm air inlet closed providing max warmth, I had 6% better mpg than with grill and air inlets open.

A while later, I ran it again with outside temp about 26 F (-3C), only had a 3% improvement with mods 'closed'.

Ran again today with outside temp -5F (-20C), no difference in mpg with mods open or closed. (btw: iat topped out at 59F on a 1 mile climb.)

Diminishing returns??

Wow, it's cold today!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
84 Posts
Below zero in Minnesota

We've had a number of below zero (f) days in Minnesota. I have surrendered. It's so frustating to watch my mpgs drop like a rock - it seems there's nothing I can do when it's this cold. Super cold ambient temps and lower "winter gas" BTUs = lower mpgs.
After more -15 to -20 tonight we should get above zero for the weekend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
From your results it seems like there is a minimum intake temp at which there is little or no effect on warming the fuel to increase efficiency.
I'm thinking that our fuel economy improvements may be a result of some of the fuel gasifying more on entering the combustion chamber, thereby lowering the virtual displacement of the engine (air intake would adjust automatically per O2 sensor feedback). Of course the tradeoff there would be lower power output, but that's a fair trade when you can always revert to normal intake temps as you wish.
I wonder if anybody else has doubts about the K&N Cold Air Intakes improving both *horsepower*(edit) and fuel economy? I really, REALLY doubt their claims... I think you can have one but not the other.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,913 Posts
Updating warm air / grill block mods vs cold weather:

A while back I made several 14 mile runs on a nearby interstate.

<snip>

Ran again today with outside temp -5F (-20C), no difference in mpg with mods open or closed. (btw: iat topped out at 59F on a 1 mile climb.)

Diminishing returns??

Wow, it's cold today!
Did you do a new baseline for each of the tests at different temps. There are a lot of other variables. For example, cold/dense air has higher drag.
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
The baseline for each weather condition was the average of 3 runs with air and grill mods in use (closed for iat warming, and elevated ect). The comparison is with mods not in use (grill block open, and air mod open). Tried to keep as many other conditions identical, such as tire pressure, road speed, hypermiling technique, bare / dry road surface, etc. Even made sure the car, pack, and engine were up to operating temps before beginning the runs. Wind compensation made by driving 7 miles north on the rte, then returning 7 miles south.

I was surprised to see the zero net difference in mpg when I made the runs during the below zero temps.

Interesting collection of data.

btw: saw some interesting pack behavior in the frigid temps. http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/honda-insight-forum-1st-gen-discussion/35345-cold-weather-behavior.html
The pack settled down after it warmed. I need heat capability in my garage.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,913 Posts
The baseline for each weather condition was the average of 3 runs with air and grill mods in use (closed for iat warming, and elevated ect). The comparison is with mods not in use (grill block open, and air mod open).
So you made 6 runs at each temperature? Three for the "baseline" and three for the "comparison."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,814 Posts
You also have a cvt without lean burn. I wonder what a manual would do under similar conditions. Would the grill block and warm air mod allow a wider lean burn window at the very low temps, with a resulting bigger difference in mpg?
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
N4S:

good question. I keep reading that warmer iat allows better lean burn acquisition. Maybe an mt owner with air mods could add some personal experience here?

How'd your cvt do in the Chicago sub-zero weather?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,913 Posts
N4S:

good question. I keep reading that warmer iat allows better lean burn acquisition. Maybe an mt owner with air mods could add some personal experience here?
Yes, the warmer IAT helps lean burn considerably. One IC member studied this a few years back and found that the optimum IAT was around 115F on the MT car. (I don't have the link, but you might be able to find it.) It is very hard to split MPG "hairs" with the MT insight because the impact of lean burn is hard to control and is so great. We know in general that certain things always help, like certain aerodynamics improvements, and possibly a warm air intake. The aero stuff can be nailed down from the work of others over on Ecomodder who can gather accurate data with non hybrids. I'm thinking of mirror removals, grill blocks and undertrays. This is one reason I was surprised by your temperature findings and interesting in exactly how you had calibrated each of the test sessions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
jime mentioned that colder air is denser and will cause you to use more fuel to push the air around your car.

Also, at colder temps the intake air will be more dense, meaning that each power stroke can burn more fuel. All things being equal, if you can get more power per stroke you should be ever so slightly more efficient, but there is definitely something about warm intake air that increases efficiency. Hmmmm.
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
So you made 6 runs at each temperature? Three for the "baseline" and three for the "comparison."
Yeah sort of:

I made 3 runs with mods in use, and 3 runs with mods 'open' (allowing ambient air in). I have now done this at 3 different ambient temp ranges: 40 deg F range, mid 20's range, and sub-zero. I compared the avg mpgs and found decreasing benefit.

Jim, you also mentioned about iat for the mt's being good at 115. I have found (at least for my car) 105-110 is pretty nice. As Need4Speed posted some time ago, I can't get iat up that far now that it's this cold. On milder days I can get a 90 deg increase over ambient, but on the sub-zero test run, I could only get a 64 deg increase for a max iat of 59 deg F.

Lacertus: you're right about the denser air, I can sort of feel it on downhill runs where in the summer the car would accelerate on its own down the hill. Now the car slows down.
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
bump,

With a combination of lower grill block, adjustable full rad block, warm air mod, and KLR3CYL's belly pan, I have noticed very nice temp control for IAT and ECT (on the cvt).

Last year (edit: winter ) it was rare to break 60 mpg with the cvt on the way UP to work. I'm able to surpass that much more often with decent conditions (dry road, low/no wind).

Temps have been in the teens and 20's already this season. I am finding it very easy to raise IAT 60, 70 deg and more above ambient, particularly when climbing inclines. Very easy to keep ECT over 200.

I've got to get the mt fitted up next summer.

I'm anxious to see how it goes in Jan and Feb when the sub-zero temps hit.
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
Single digits and just plain freezin' *** cold.

(on the cvt) With the combination of blocks, pan, and warm air stuff, the car was able to warm quicker than previous 2 winters. (my brother reminded me that it was 20 degrees colder this week last year).

Able to get ect over 200 with ease. Able to raise iat at least 50 deg above ambient with ease, 75 deg over with moderate load, 100 over ambient on the mountain.

I'll know more about mpg results with some more round trips and then compare to last 2 winters.

I won't get it all back, but at least it'll lessen the winter mpg hit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
My cardboard radiator block 6x17" with handle.

Just one week ago I purchased my 2000 Honda Insight 5-Speed. After reading this post I made and installed my own cardboard radiator block. This will help me learn to get into lean burn in the winter, I think.

See photo and drawing attached...

Cardboard Radiator Block.jpg

Radiator Block Drawing.jpg

__________________
2000 5-Speed Formula Red 149,000 miles
6x17" cardboard radiator block
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
I have read in this thread the Insight's radiator tubes are vertical. The 2" wide strip that makes the "handle" blocks the tubes completely in that area. With the triangle cut-out the cooling is more uniform tube-to-tube across then entire radiator width.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
I haven't seen any mpg gains since I installed one on mine last tank, but it's probably because it doesn't get cold enough to make a difference here. I'll leave it on until late February in case it cools off, but I don't think I am going to see any real benefit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
I just put my radiator block in for winter. This time I used a rectangular piece of cardboard 17" x 6", and added a couple pieces of wire to make "handles" for easy adjustment and pulling out.

I made a small "J" at the bottom of each wire so it turns and comes back into the cardboard and used packing tape to keep it in place.

The wires I used were from small marking flags the utilities use to mark the location of underground utilities when you "call before you dig".
 

Attachments

281 - 300 of 301 Posts
Top