[savvy]

Hi,

I have a Manual 2000 Honda Insight here in New Zealand. I bought it in July 2014 and it came equipped with a grid charger.

In December I was having lunch in the car with the radio on for about 30 mins. I tried to start the car afterwards and it wouldn't. Then a week later I was parked up again with the park lights on by mistake - and again another flat battery. The battery callout guy said the 12V battery tested ok and didn't appear to have a drain on it, he did say the battery looked a bit small for the car though. The charge was down to about 10.5V. I got a 3rd flat battery soon after when I left the car at home and hadn't driven it for one day.

So I decided to take it to the Honda dealer in my city to see if they could figure out what was wrong with it. At this point I had also clicked that the IMA light was on permanently now while driving, after it only coming on infrequently in previous months, I had at just brushed it off as a quirk of the car. So I told them to solve the IMA light problem, as that was my guess to the flat battery problem. It stayed in their workshop for a month while they ordered parts from Japan, first they got some "spacers" for the battery, and then they said they found something faulty in the battery - Im guessing the batteries but I'm not sure, and they got some more parts from Japan for it.

Anyway a month later they gave me the car back and no IMA light, so I was happy. They had taken away the lead for the grid charger though, so was a bit disappointed with that - no more grid charges for me. I have had the car back for about three weeks now, no IMA light since then. Then today I did a lot of driving through the day with lots of stops and starts, it got to about 5pm and went to head off and got the dreaded clicking sound. It wouldn't start again, the battery callout guy came out and said the battery was about 11.3V. Got it started ok and still no IMA light.

Anyone know what's going on here and are able to tell me why I'm getting these flat batteries and how I should get it fixed?

Much appreciated,
Nick

 

[IamIan]

Anyone know what's going on here and are able to tell me why I'm getting these flat batteries and how I should get it fixed?

Couple of options.

The next step to narrow it down is get a live 12V digital meter reading .. Peter's OBDIIC&C does this .. or most other OBDII readers with a display .. or even a basic digital 12V meter reading off the 12V 'accessory' outlet near the cup holders... It should be very rare Car 'on' or 'off' to ever see the 12V battery actual voltage bellow 11V.

While the car is 'on' ... ICE running or in Auto-Stop .. the car's DC-DC converter should kick in and out automatically .. you can see this on the 12V reading when the 12V real time voltage goes up above to 13.5v or above... that means the DC-DC is on ... the DC-DC acts as the car's alternator .. better than a conventional alternator that can only charge the 12V when the ICE is turning ... the DC-DC can charge the 12V even during Auto-Stop when the ICE is not turning.

If you are running 12V accessories regularly with the car 'Off' .. you may want to either:

• Install a larger capacity 12V
• Install the DC-DC 'keep alive' mod to allow you to activate the 'alternator' like DC-DC function to charge the 12V from the 144V battery even while the car is 'off'.
• Both of above

Weather the mechanic saw it or not .. the is always a 12V load on the 12V battery of about 99% of cars on the road .. it might not be a large load .. but there is always a load .. computer module memories , including your radio stations , looking for your keyless entry signal , etc ... this is also why any car that is being 'stored' for extended periods of time ... the OEM always recommends disconnecting the 12V... To track down and measure the magnitude of the car's 'off' loads and determine if you want to try and reduce those ... you will need a good amp meter .. ideally clamp on style to avoid having to cut wires... and ideally one that will reliably read under 100mA... but I would still just start with a basic real time 12V digital volt meter .. it's the easiest and cheapest 1st step.

 

[retepsnikrep]

My ten pence worth.

How much were the repairs the dealer did to the IMA battery?
What does the invoice say they did?
Ask for an itemised bill with list of parts replaced and post it.
This gives us an idea of what they did or didn't do.

That aside first things first IMO.

Check the engine grounds leads and replace any dodgy looking or missing ones.
Unless you are positive the 12v battery is young and in good condition then replace it, they lead a hard life.

If you get further ima lights or flat batteries we need the IMA codes to assist with further diagnosis, so read up on flashing out the ima codes or get a code reader that can read them.

If it has had a grid charger fitted by a previous owner chances are the IMA battery is old in the tooth, and you will ultimately need a replacement.

What type of charger is it post a pic/details.

Read up on cycling the IMA pack and get a cycling compatible charger harness fitted, that's your best chance of extending the IMA battery life with least effort.
Several vendors on here sell overseas and supply cycling compatible charger gear.

If the IMA battery is ultimately at the end of it's life then several vendors on here inc me will supply quality replacement sticks if you have a competent independent mechanic who can swap them out, but the cost of shipping/import duties etc will add a hefty chunk to the price. Think around $2000 US ball park for a set of sticks shipped.

I expect there must only be a handful of G1's in New Zeland so it's worth investing the time and money to fix such a rare car.

 

[savvy]

Thanks for the responses guys, so far no more flat batteries... IamIan, I tried your test of the car while it was running with my multimeter. I got a reading of 13.8V off the terminals of the 12V battery. So I would take that to mean that the battery is being charged while the engine is on - which is a good thing. I don't have any accessories that I know of that could be draining the battery either. The car seems stock standard.

retepsnikrep, the honda dealer didn't give me an invoice. They just gave me back the car and said the repairs they had made were under a parts warranty. It was a bit hard for me to believe that, but I will chase them up for an invoice anyway. The battery had last been replaced in February 2012, so my take on it was that this battery had a warranty of 3 years and I had just got it looked at before that expired.

I have checked the engine ground cables before and they look ok to my eyes.. quite greenish in colour, but intact.

I can't afford a new battery pack right now, but I realise its probably going to be a better bet than a reconditioned pack from Honda if Im looking long term.

The grid charger I had was a HybridAutomotive one. If I got another one, how much would that extend the life of my battery?

 

[The Citrus Smoothie]

Nick, I agree with Peter's comments about the work done, you should be told what. Our Insights are tough on their 12volts - in the past I have had to replace every 18 months or so but these were shop bought replacements. My current one is a Honda OEM one and has lasted much longer. Hope this helps

 

[Balto]

There has got to be a big load on the 12v to drain it like that. Many nights at work I sat with my radio on for ~7 hours with using the map lights intermittently and never had any problems starting when it was time to go home.

 

[apollos68]

hi iamian and commenters,
this seemed to be an appropriate question 'add to.' not trying to take over persons thread, but rather, consolidating 'excessive ima questions.'
1. are the 12v accessory, and the 144v pack, working in a 'tandem?' (seems the one directly effects, and directly influences the other) (voltages, charge duration etc) (would appreciate known example(s) if realistic)
2. if the 12V accessory battery, in addition to the 'dummy display,' illumination red on the driver screen, will the 'check engine,' report 12v failure such as 'faulty cell,' on obd, or would that apply only to the 144v?
appreciate known experiences of such if of, course applicable.
t.y.
apollos,
insight gen 1 owner.

 

[Rainsux]

1. The 12V battery is charged through the DC/DC Converter, just as the 12V battery in a "normal" car is charged by the alternator.

2. There is no CEL or fault code for the 12V battery. The red battery light just tells you that it isn't getting charged. Of course, when it drops far enough that it can no longer power the computers and other 12V accessories the car will die and not restart, just like any other car.

Sam

 

[mudder]

2. There is no CEL or fault code for the 12V battery. The red battery light just tells you that it isn't getting charged. Of course, when it drops far enough that it can no longer power the computers and other 12V accessories the car will die and not restart, just like any other car.
Sam

To elaborate further, the battery indicator light on the dashboard connects directly to the DC-DC converter. The DC-DC has no way to tell the ECU that the 12 V battery is low. The ECU will run until it browns out when the voltage gets too low.