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Discussion Starter #1
The low engine torque/power/mpg issue has existed since Ive owned the vehicle, about 2 years now.

The lean burn and purge issues are new, as of a few weeks ago. Car will be at or close to 197*F CLT, TPS at a very low % like even 11 or 12 %, steady speed (over 25mph) all the conditions to drop into lean burn, but it just wont go. It will take minutes sometimes to plop in lean burn.

Additionally, even if the car hasnt hit leanburn yet, since turning it on and driving it, it will switch to purge AFRs multiple times per minute. Like every 15 seconds or so. Ive noticed it happening as slow as 20mph. Seems to happen more at lower CLT, not quite at the full operating temp, but still occurs at 197*F

At highway speeds, the car goes into purge every 2ish minutes. Not sure if that is normal, but it sure is annoying.

The low engine power all non Vtec. So without battery assist the car BARELY accelerates. Im talking a few minutes to hit 30mph if Im trying to keep lower throttle inputs (under 20%) and good gas mileage.

I know that this low power at low throttle inputs is not normal, as Ive driven, and ridden (and owned one) in multiple cars that accelerate well at low throttle inputs and RPM. This also tranlates into drastically higher MPG than I can achieve with my car.

So not only does it back up traffic because of how slow I have to drive it to get good MPG, but its frustrating, inconvinient, unsafe...

Car has no leaks (and no cat converters), just did a bunch of maintenance, including valvelash, and checking most sensors on the intake tract. Brakes dont drag, has newer (replaced 1 year ago) OEM O2 sensors newer oem clocked spark plugs, completely clean throttlebody and IAT valve, doesnt burn coolant or oil (verified by Blackstone labs) OEM tires with decent tread, date stamped 10/2016, at 80psi cold. Car has mostly blocked front fascia, Scotts underpan, OBDII C&C, and a Bumblebee Max battery, new in 2017. No codes have popped up in a while, but I have had a persistant O2 sensor code. (I cant recall the exact one, but it hasnt shown up in a few weeks) Oh, hot compression is 160ish, all cylinders within few % of eachother, and above minimum specs according to the manual.

Previous owner swapped out injectors and ECM (to my knowledge) before I purchased the vehicle. I havent verified the injectors are correct, or have proper spray pattern. I will be checking (and posting) the part number on my ECM soon.

Thank you for your suggestions.
 

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Have you done a proper compression test, according to instructions in the service manual?

Perhaps choked catalytic converter?

Any codes showing?
 

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The low engine torque/power/mpg issue has existed since Ive owned the vehicle, about 2 years now.

The lean burn and purge issues are new, as of a few weeks ago. Car will be at or close to 197*F CLT, TPS at a very low % like even 11 or 12 %, steady speed (over 25mph) all the conditions to drop into lean burn, but it just wont go. It will take minutes sometimes to plop in lean burn.

Additionally, even if the car hasnt hit leanburn yet, since turning it on and driving it, it will switch to purge AFRs multiple times per minute. Like every 15 seconds or so. Ive noticed it happening as slow as 20mph. Seems to happen more at lower CLT, not quite at the full operating temp, but still occurs at 197*F

At highway speeds, the car goes into purge every 2ish minutes. Not sure if that is normal, but it sure is annoying.

The low engine power all non Vtec. So without battery assist the car BARELY accelerates. Im talking a few minutes to hit 30mph if Im trying to keep lower throttle inputs (under 20%) and good gas mileage.

I know that this low power at low throttle inputs is not normal, as Ive driven, and ridden (and owned one) in multiple cars that accelerate well at low throttle inputs and RPM. This also tranlates into drastically higher MPG than I can achieve with my car.

So not only does it back up traffic because of how slow I have to drive it to get good MPG, but its frustrating, inconvinient, unsafe...

Car has no leaks (and no cat converters), just did a bunch of maintenance, including valvelash, and checking most sensors on the intake tract. Brakes dont drag, has newer (replaced 1 year ago) OEM O2 sensors newer oem clocked spark plugs, completely clean throttlebody and IAT valve, doesnt burn coolant or oil (verified by Blackstone labs) OEM tires with decent tread, date stamped 10/2016, at 80psi cold. Car has mostly blocked front fascia, Scotts underpan, OBDII C&C, and a Bumblebee Max battery, new in 2017. No codes have popped up in a while, but I have had a persistant O2 sensor code. (I cant recall the exact one, but it hasnt shown up in a few weeks) Oh, hot compression is 160ish, all cylinders within few % of eachother, and above minimum specs according to the manual.

Previous owner swapped out injectors and ECM (to my knowledge) before I purchased the vehicle. I havent verified the injectors are correct, or have proper spray pattern. I will be checking (and posting) the part number on my ECM soon.

Thank you for your suggestions.
A few questions:
  • What year is the car? How many miles are on it?
  • Can you pull the O2 sensor (the upstream one) and take high resolution pictures of it and any markings? It will be very interesting to see real OEM sensors and compare them against known good aftermarket ones. I'm wondering if you have a CVT LAF sensor in your MT.
  • Do you have data from a scan tool (probably like a more expensive Autel) that is telling you that air fuel ratio is changing rapidly?
  • How many miles are on your EGR valve? If newer, do you have documentation about its source?
  • Purge every 2 minutes is about normal
I've spent a fair amount of time trying to better understand the AFR and EGR systems on my car, to the point of buying a variety of new and used sensors and building an EGR tester, and I'd love to get more data points...
 

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So I’m a bit confused as to why you have changed your on line handle from, Number 81 to Number 767? You have been chasing many things on the car for a long time. I’ve recently spent a lot of time with you via text helping sort things.

Both Jime and Sean I’m sure have been involved in your other threads about the same car. By changing your name and or identity and starting another thread I’m not sure is good for the forum and helpful to others needing help with similar issues.

I’m a bit perplexed,
Scott
 

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Yeah, I'm not sure why you changed you screen name. It isn't going to get you a whole new round of suggestions of the same suggestions. It seems to me we have all been through every possible source of potential resolution. From time I drove your car last year at InsightFest I've been convinced that the car is slightly down on power. These old card do vary slightly of ICE power, but, honestly, this has been going on so long I've lost track.

You might build one of these and give each ECM pin a test:


I didn't know about the lack of an ECM cover and the rat's nest wiring, but If it weren't correctly wired, I'd think there would be a code. I note you haven't answered my questions from yesterday, so I'm pretty much at wits end - as I think everyone else is. I was just talking to klr3cyl by phone and there isn't much that hasn't been tried.

How many miles on the car at this point? Do you know how to do a leak down test in addition to a proper compression test? You can probably rent a leak down gauge.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Have you done a proper compression test, according to instructions in the service manual?

Perhaps choked catalytic converter?

Any codes showing?
Yes, iirc hot compression numbers are 158 165 162

Fully catless, i checked for clogs or pieces of material inside, clear.

No codes.

But I just discovered an insane rats nest of BARE wire, almost a dozen splices, the most hacked solder job Ive ever seen on the main ECM power.... This is almost assuredly the problem area.
 

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Are you going to explain why you changed your name? It's confusing and doesn't help your cause.

Sam
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Oh Im on mobile, and none of the replies had shown up until now, sorry everyone.

I also didnt change my handle for any nefarious reasons, I just simply realised my name was from my previous car's VIN, thats it.

Sorry for any confusion
 

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And you haven't noticed the "Mess" for over two years. Sounds like maybe there was an engine change along the way somewhere.
Got pics of the mess?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
A few questions:
  • What year is the car? How many miles are on it?
  • Can you pull the O2 sensor (the upstream one) and take high resolution pictures of it and any markings? It will be very interesting to see real OEM sensors and compare them against known good aftermarket ones. I'm wondering if you have a CVT LAF sensor in your MT.
  • Do you have data from a scan tool (probably like a more expensive Autel) that is telling you that air fuel ratio is changing rapidly?
  • How many miles are on your EGR valve? If newer, do you have documentation about its source?
  • Purge every 2 minutes is about normal
I've spent a fair amount of time trying to better understand the AFR and EGR systems on my car, to the point of buying a variety of new and used sensors and building an EGR tester, and I'd love to get more data points...
2000 insight 201600miles

10k miles on the EGR valve. I had a non insight oem valve on it when I purchased the vehicle, and it had a VERY small port. Im using the V6 Accord EGR valve, i dont really get bucking, and the port size is much closer to the insight size.

I have the OBDII C&C gauge, with AFR displayed at the bottom right. I can also feel when it changes, quite drastic.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah, I'm not sure why you changed you screen name. It isn't going to get you a whole new round of suggestions of the same suggestions. It seems to me we have all been through every possible source of potential resolution. From time I drove your car last year at InsightFest I've been convinced that the car is slightly down on power. These old card do vary slightly of ICE power, but, honestly, this has been going on so long I've lost track.

You might build one of these and give each ECM pin a test:


I didn't know about the lack of an ECM cover and the rat's nest wiring, but If it weren't correctly wired, I'd think there would be a code. I note you haven't answered my questions from yesterday, so I'm pretty much at wits end - as I think everyone else is. I was just talking to klr3cyl by phone and there isn't much that hasn't been tried.

How many miles on the car at this point? Do you know how to do a leak down test in addition to a proper compression test? You can probably rent a leak down gauge.
I appreciate all the help so far, i didnt mean anything by my name change.

Compression was good 160ish on all three.

John is coming over to have a look at the wiring. (Responded to my electrical expert thread, and happened to live closeby)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
And you haven't noticed the "Mess" for over two years. Sounds like maybe there was an engine change along the way somewhere.
Got pics of the mess?
To be fair, I had noticed strange driveability issues the entire time, and I had never taken a look at the ecm wiring until yesterday. There is so much crap under the tape
 

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Oh Im on mobile, and none of the replies had shown up until now, sorry everyone.

I also didnt change my handle for any nefarious reasons, I just simply realised my name was from my previous car's VIN, thats it.

Sorry for any confusion
Please change it back. This is almost as big a mess as the wiring.

Sam
 

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Moderators can't change it, maybe Admin retepsnikrep, but it isn't worth the effort now that it's done. All your previous posts are associated with the new name, so the change is of no real consequence for those with long memories:)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Moderators can't change it, maybe Admin retepsnikrep, but it isn't worth the effort now that it's done. All your previous posts are associated with the new name, so the change is of no real consequence for those with long memories:)
Well, I put in a request anyways. It doesnt make a difference to me, and Id like to keep everyone happy. (Especially since you all are my lifelines with this car!)

I did discover that the car has a different mcm, ill post those pics, and also the part number of the ECM
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
OOOOOOOOOOH KAYY So the ECM that is in the car is for a 2001 M/T car. The latest part number for a 2000 insight ends in 505.

Is there a way to check that the engine in the car is indeed from my original chassis? The VIN plate on the rear of my engine matches my chassis.

Is there a sensor or something that isn't in a 2000 engine, but IS in a 2001?

Is it possible all these splices and crap were done to make a 2001 ECM work in a 2000?
 

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There was an update on the ECU around 2001. I don't believe any 2000 ECU's are available.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I'd get one from a 2000 parts car first, but I did check, Honda still stocks brand new 505 ECMs
 

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You're going to throw parts at it instead of fixing the wiring harness?

Sam
 
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